17:59:16 RRSAgent has joined #openui 17:59:20 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/08/07-openui-irc 17:59:20 Zakim, start meeting 17:59:20 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:59:21 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), masonf 17:59:21 flackr has joined #openui 17:59:24 meeting: Open UI 17:59:31 Penny has joined #openui 18:02:04 present+ 18:02:17 present+ 18:02:22 scribenick: gregwhitworth 18:03:14 github-bot, take up https://github.com/openui/open-ui/issues/1258 18:03:14 Topic: Alternative HTML-only version of the `::interest-hint` feature, via command invokers 18:03:14 OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/openui/open-ui/issues/1258. 18:04:08 masonf: this is the issue related to interest invokers proposal 18:04:27 masonf: there has been a proposal for a new pseudo element primarily for touch screen usecases 18:04:36 sarah2 has joined #openui 18:04:56 masonf: it might be nice to have a button next to the link and it will show interest in the link and thus pop up a card or similar 18:05:36 masonf: rather than the browser providing one for you this works a bit better you can provide your own UI and then use command for and when it's interest it will hook it up 18:05:49 masonf: benefit is that none of it is magic, it's still declarative, etc 18:06:00 masonf: it side-steps some of the serious issues with the pseudo element 18:06:09 una has joined #openui 18:06:20 masonf: you can put interest for on a button and you end up with focus issues, etc and this seems to side step them 18:06:24 present+ 18:06:43 masonf: one of the issues with psuedo is that you could only show it with media queries which you should still be able to do this 18:07:08 masonf: I do want to discuss focus, it's a button so it should focus but it would be good to possibly only have a single focus 18:07:14 masonf: that's an open question I guess 18:07:22 masonf: the naming is also open 18:07:29 masonf: show interest and toggle interest 18:07:38 masonf: I prefer toggle as that's what you're doing 18:07:57 q? 18:07:57 q+ 18:07:57 q+ 18:08:02 masonf: but show-interest better implies the task you're trying to do 18:08:06 ack flackr 18:08:22 flackr: if this is just a command attached to a button I think it would be odd to change its focus due to that 18:08:41 masonf: no, this is a bit special though as it has two invokers on it 18:08:59 masonf: two questions here 18:09:11 masonf: what should the browser do and what do the developers do? 18:09:40 flackr: if we were going to not have focus due to modalities you can 18:09:46 flackr: do we show focus on keyboards? 18:09:49 masonf: yes 18:09:56 flackr: do you get in traps? 18:10:01 masonf: no 18:10:35 ack una 18:10:40 q+ 18:10:57 una: I think this is a better solution than the psuedo element and they can opt-in using coarse pointer 18:11:19 una: I don't know regarding the automatic focus, but this is not something we would want the user to enter "like a button" 18:11:43 una: I guess my answer regarding the focus is "I don't know" but this solution is more elegant than the pseudo and the CSSWG agreed with this proposal 18:11:52 q? 18:11:56 ack sarah2 18:11:59 ack sarah 18:12:13 sarah: apologies if this is a dumb question 18:12:23 sarah: is this specific only to interest targets 18:12:39 masonf: this has only been open for 24 hours, so no concern 18:13:08 masonf: this is a seperate other button that points to the thing with interest-for and be able to provide an extra button to be able "tap" to show interest 18:13:22 sarah: ahh, to differentiate in the action of the primary action 18:13:39 sarah: there are still a11y issues with the button; it's better than psuedo 18:14:17 sarah: it should have focus as ATs will expect this. Where does focus go after you click the button and have it control a button that's somewhere else especially in scenarios like "zoom" 18:14:43 sarah: my hope with interest is that platforms and ATs would be able to show it without needing additional UI and affordances 18:15:00 sarah: that isn't a strongly held opinion since platforms haven't done this yet 18:15:16 masonf: for mouse and keyboard there are ways to show interest, a11y tech will need extra affordance 18:15:40 masonf: touchscreen has the long press, this is different that gives you a bit more control 18:16:03 masonf: some sites don't want a bunch of different little buttons to allow this but maybe they do. This is an opt-in 18:16:48 q+ 18:16:48 masonf: since this is a chained invoker and it has aria-details from the command. Should this one short circuit past the middle step and go directly to the final popover? 18:17:18 sarah: kind of part of it, I don't think you want ATs to see the button at all? 18:17:51 sarah: that doesn't seem like it would be a good experience. It would tell me that you have two adjacent elements that are bound to the popover 18:18:20 sarah: if you have screen readers have to learn a new aspect of interest but then there are ones that seem the same but have a subtle difference 18:18:48 sarah: this does seem to be something that is very specific to touch, maybe we should have a universal button of some form? 18:19:11 masonf: on your first comment, it seems that we should *not* put it in the accessibility tree 18:19:21 q+ about removing from AT regarding touch exploration 18:19:25 q+ 18:19:39 masonf: my one statement is that this occurs on desktop today and you'll have two tab stops 18:19:40 q+ 18:20:34 frehner: one usecase we have is if you have an acronym and defining that in the tooltip if you short circut the button going to the other invoker then do you short-circut and the button has that definition but what am I actually defining here? Do you have to duplicate the content? 18:20:40 q? 18:20:46 ack frehner 18:21:03 sarah: yeah, the a11y relations are related to the popup and you need the trigger and the popup 18:21:37 sarah: if you should be able to invoke it from your AT you kind of only want it for touch 18:22:09 una: to masonf example with the tooltip after the form field, that would just be a button with an interest invoker on it 18:22:49 sarah: I've done some research on this for disabled users and you want the focus on the button to invoke the popup and you don't want to set focus on another button that shows a popup on the input 18:23:00 una: +1 that this would only really be on touch events 18:23:16 masonf: you only want this on touch devices? 18:23:40 una: I'm just saying that you can just use interest-for affordance which is a visual affordance on touch devices 18:23:44 q- 18:24:04 flackr: just wanted to respond to sarah's thought on it not being in a11y tree which I do generally agree with 18:24:04 q+ 18:24:19 flackr: if you're using talk back or cursor other things and you'll want it to respond 18:24:38 sarah: I actually don't think you want it to talk back or in VO via actions 18:24:47 Bret has joined #openui 18:24:56 flackr: if they're not fully blind but they're not able to fully see it then you may want it 18:25:01 q+ 18:25:11 sarah: if this were a CSS pseudo element it would be already in the focus 18:25:13 ack flackr 18:25:14 ack me 18:25:17 ack sarah 18:25:25 una: add a little cons of the psuedo element 18:25:34 una: people want interactive icons 18:25:47 una: there's only so much you can do with a psuedo element 18:25:52 una: it's definately limited 18:25:59 q+ 18:26:03 ack una 18:26:06 ack keithamus 18:26:45 masonf: what if all of these are still capabilities and they can make them visible for non-coarse and the equivalent of tabindex=-1 but we provide the good behavior by default 18:26:45 q+ 18:26:53 masonf: maybe remove it from the a11y tree 18:26:59 masonf: is that a good solution? 18:27:17 sarah: would you automatically remove the button with this value except for touch devices? 18:27:31 sarah: there are touch enabled computers 18:27:56 keithamus: touch enable computers there are MS surface that is course pointer 18:28:19 keithamus: a conclusion I get from this is that this is better than the pseudo element and it's a low level primitive 18:28:48 keithamus: that we can confidently come up with an answer to some of these questions the developers would have the same questions 18:29:03 keithamus: I worry a little bit, it's not a solution in a box but a primitive on how to make it work 18:29:10 q? 18:29:11 it's easy to mis-wire it 18:29:37 q+ 18:29:40 keithamus: the button is better than a pseudo and it makes me wonder if we should solve this. Or maybe we do and something comes up in the web 18:29:54 masonf: I don't want to ship the bare bones MVP and do a default Good 18:29:58 ack una 18:30:26 una: I find the idea of default styles interesting, I have a few questions. Developers may have expectations of "where is this button that I just added" 18:30:37 una: is there a way to show/hint that it's available on touch devices 18:30:48 una: are there other UA styles that have these types of conditionals 18:31:05 una: I'm seeing people head shake "no" which will be odd 18:31:19 una: can you have a coarse or fine pointers on the same device 18:31:47 flackr: coarse means that you have any device applied that is coarse 18:32:27 masonf: even if you use a device that supports both; I think we would still show it 18:32:46 masonf: there are no existing styles that do this 18:33:27 masonf: the discussion we had around media queries for the select and we wouldn't include them 18:33:28 q? 18:33:43 flackr: there is a primary pointer in the media query 18:34:11 una: we should have some defaults and maybe the media queries can get added by the dev 18:34:15 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12437 18:34:35 sarah: can we get the list of issues with the pseudo elements for review 18:34:48 sarah: we shouldn't push these discussions on to the developers 18:35:09 sarah: this could go on a new value for interest-for and would only show up on coarse pointer by default 18:35:22 masonf: oh, an actual new element 18:35:29 that feels more semantic, even if more complex 18:35:31 sarah: yeah, similar to 18:36:23 Bret: if you're just thinking of someone that's new to this and doing this wiring up and I'm not sure why I'm doing it while there is an element that is semantic for why it's there 18:37:11 gregwhitworth: Dominic said we shouldn't be too scared to introduce a new element. 18:37:25 q+ 18:37:39 gregwhitworth: With UI toolkits, it's somewhat common to have another element that wires things up for you for these cases 18:37:46 ack me 18:37:48 ack sarah 18:37:53 ack masonf 18:38:00 q+ 18:38:22 button of new type? 18:38:26 masonf: this is a button, and it's going to be hard to name this as the WHATWG was generally opposed to something that seems like a button 18:38:32 (remember: they wouldnt even let us do a new selectmenu element) 18:38:39 sarah: it's not a BUTTON!!!!!!! 18:38:58 sarah: this reads to me like the X at the end of an input that clear the input 18:39:03 that feels pseudo 18:39:15 sarah: you can't click that with a screen reader and delete them their own way 18:39:36 q+ 18:39:39 sarah: it's conditionally rendered and I think you don't want it to be the accessibiltiy tree 18:39:40 ack sarah 18:39:55 q+ 18:40:08 masonf: the CSSWG has a lot of this content in there, you're saying it should look like a button but it isn't a button 18:40:30 q+ 18:40:33 sarah: this is a touch affordance as touch users specifically don't have an affordance to show interest and not something you want in all scenarios 18:40:58 masonf: that is definately the primary use case, there may be a few but they may not be good ones 18:41:10 sarah: non AT screen-reader touch screen 18:41:24 masonf: if it's on a touch screen would you want to paint on it? 18:41:40 sarah: it should say "has actions" and I would expect that to occur 18:41:44 ack keithamus 18:42:07 keithamus: I think Sarah is getting close to something; if it's like an input affordance then maybe it's a psuedo element 18:42:09 q+ 18:42:20 ack Bret 18:42:54 Bret: what if we think about this a bit inversely that we have clickable/focusable elements that you don't want in the accessibility tree that aren't a button 18:43:11 sarah: the X thing is what we've done at the end of the input 18:43:29 Bret: so is that the solution then? 18:45:12 masonf: with popovers you do still need to wait for a second. longpress you also don't know what it'll be until you try it 18:46:15 masonf: all apps all over, even browsers, don't really have much discoverability here either. it's generally through trying it out 18:47:26 q+ 18:47:29 gregwhitworth: passwordreveal "i" thing: the moment we tested this on e.g. amazon, it just didn't work once you got past the basic usecase 18:48:22 ... maybe the pseudo element meets 70% usecases, but if browsers don't implement or if the 30% have to reimplement, then it's bad 18:48:45 q+ 18:49:13 ... we're doing that with styling pseudos in css-forms, and it covers 90%. but I don't see a silver bullet 18:49:26 "my new element" 😬 18:49:35 ack gregwhitworth 18:50:11 una: with carousel, scroll-marker, the new way has so much more control. pseudos just aren't enough by default. 18:50:33 flackr: there's also the "do both" approach 18:51:03 una: could do that. both the pseudo and the higher-capacity thing that allows more customization 18:51:27 masonf: we're finding accessibility issues with both, so maybe this doesn't work anyway with either 18:53:03 q+ 18:53:06 sarah2: show/hide password example, not going to share an opinion on the 70% use-case, but in the case of greater customization with a button going directly may be ok 18:53:33 button or span 18:53:37 masonf: is that the solution? use the new command invoker to point to the tooltip? 18:53:48 sarah2: but I don't want that to be the default 18:54:07 ... could also show pseudo by default 18:54:18 ack una 18:54:24 ack me 18:54:27 ack sarah 18:54:32 ack Bret 18:54:44 (showing a pseudo by default wasn't an entirely serious suggestion :D) 18:54:57 Bret: simplist: use a span to avoid the accessibility tree. otherwise a button 18:55:12 ... that doesn't hide thing out of the box on desktop 18:55:13 q+ 18:55:31 masonf: can't use these declarative attributes on the span 18:56:13 sarah2: I see a war between devs doing shitty things and we're like "there's one valid use-case!" 18:59:57 Zakim, end meeting 18:59:57 As of this point the attendees have been gregwhitworth, flackr, keithamus, una 19:00:00 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 19:00:02 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/07-openui-minutes.html Zakim 19:00:09 I am happy to have been of service, gregwhitworth; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:00:09 Zakim has left #openui 19:07:23 Penny has joined #openui 23:18:05 Penny has joined #openui