17:56:33 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 17:56:37 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/08/05-aria-apg-irc 17:56:37 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:56:38 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:00:49 present+ jugglinmike 18:00:55 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:00:58 present+ Matt_King 18:01:02 present+ lola 18:01:47 arigilmore has joined #aria-apg 18:02:00 present+ arigilmore 18:02:17 Adam_Page has joined #aria-apg 18:03:10 present+ Adam_Page 18:03:20 howard-e has joined #aria-apg 18:03:24 present+ howard-e 18:04:32 Topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:04:36 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/August-5%2C-2025-Agenda 18:05:38 Matt_King: Any requests for change to agenda? 18:05:52 Adam_Page: If there's time, I'd like to add an agenda item about the dialog 18:06:15 Matt_King: Ah, yes. I saw that, but I was a bit concerned about whether we'd have time to discuss it during today's meeting 18:06:39 Matt_King: I don't know if we have enough different perspectives represented in this call. I'd like to have at least one or two other screen reader users 18:07:01 Matt_King: I think things like this might require special calls where we invite a specific audience--almost like an ARIA deep-dive 18:07:14 Matt_King: Maybe the point of the agenda item would be about how to foster the appropriate discussion 18:08:03 Matt_King: Next meeting: August 12 18:08:09 Topic: Publication planning 18:08:22 Matt_King: I set up a milestone, but I haven't started adding things to it, yet 18:08:30 Matt_King: I think things in today's agenda could end up getting added there 18:09:15 Matt_King: We've been working on this one pull request that has been collecting a lot commits. I haven't had the bandwidth to determine what it needs to get it on the background 18:09:25 Matt_King: jongund is a primary author of that one 18:09:56 Matt_King: My main concern is about simplifying the messaging. It currently feels a little too complicated. It's a lot of information, and I'm unsure that it's all necessary to helping the audience 18:10:16 Matt_King: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2991 18:10:27 Topic: PR 3306: Rename Javascript to JavaScript 18:10:34 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3306 18:10:54 Matt_King: We requested the contributor to make some changes, and they told us that they made the changes 18:11:04 Matt_King: howard-e have you re-reviewed this since then? 18:11:35 howard-e: Not yet, no. I'm seeing that there is a duplicate pull request. Pull request #3317 18:11:54 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3317 18:12:01 howard-e: It's authored by the same contributor 18:12:17 howard-e: It seems to be identical 18:12:46 howard-e: They pushed the original plus the fix into this new pull request 18:14:12 Matt_King: If possible, I'd like to get the fix into the original pull request so that the history is easier to follow 18:14:39 Matt_King: There's a nitpick about cspell. It's a one-line change that isn't directly related, so I'd love it if someone can do it in a separate patch 18:14:42 arigilmore: I can do that 18:14:44 Matt_King: Thank you! 18:14:59 Topic: PR 3309: Proposed changes to focus handling in editor menubar 18:15:05 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3309 18:15:31 Matt_King: Once I read the detailed explanation (thanks arigilmore for requesting that), I understood that these are great changes 18:16:04 arigilmore: I could only see the changes when running it locally. Nothing was different on the deploy preview 18:16:20 arigilmore: Adam_Page expects that something is broken with the deploy preview system 18:16:33 arigilmore: But it all looks good when running locally 18:16:55 Matt_King: And it says that all checks have run and that all checks have passed 18:17:04 arigilmore: The code looks good to me 18:17:43 Matt_King: Do we need any other kind of review? 18:17:50 Matt_King: It doesn't change look or appearance 18:18:18 arigilmore: Right. it just alters the behavior in certain circumstances 18:18:34 Matt_King: I would like to be able to test this before we do the final merge 18:18:53 howard-e: This is an issue with the Netify cache 18:19:15 howard-e: I recently had an idea about what is going wrong, and I'm going to investigate that theory today 18:19:48 howard-e: But for the short-term, I can manually trigger the build for this pull request 18:20:15 arigilmore: We were observing two elements with "tabindex" set to zero 18:20:24 Matt_King: Thank you so much for your work on this; this is great! 18:21:39 Topic: Issue 3293: Adding "Read This First" link to the top of each pattern page 18:21:46 link: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3293 18:21:52 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:22:04 present+ jongund 18:22:05 Matt_King: howard-e worked on this, and there are two pull requests: one in the "content" repository, and one in the "build" repository 18:22:13 Sorry I am late 18:22:39 Matt_King: You added a script that does the insert after the "h1" element 18:23:02 Matt_King: On the "patterns" page, we have a graphic in the content. We're leaving that graphic out in the other pages 18:24:02 howard-e: We have about 32 "patterns" pages 18:24:42 Matt_King: What does the pull request in WAI ARIA Practices do? 18:24:58 howard-e: that updates the content itself. It's included in the generated files for the WAI APG repository 18:25:36 howard-e: It just re-includes the script. It generates Markdown files for Jekyll. And it also removes the static inclusion of that "read thie first" 18:25:49 Matt_King: Okay, great 18:26:14 Matt_King: I feel like we should have at least one other person reviwing 18:26:23 jongund: I can take a look 18:26:25 Matt_King: Thanks! 18:26:51 Matt_King: The pull request is #3320 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3320 18:27:18 Matt_King: Hopefully we can merge this next week 18:27:34 Topic: PR 3328: Add Quantity Spin Button 18:27:40 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3328 18:28:22 Adam_Page: So this kicked off a couple weeks ago when someone filed an issue. They challenged us on a WCAG-non-conforming target size with our spin button date picker example. And they also pointed out that the ARIA text suggests the use of text input 18:29:48 Adam_Page: We decided to replace the example IT's a very traditional spin button that is a numeric field which captures an integer and includes "plus" and "minus" buttons to increment and decrement. It satisfies target size. A keyboard can tab into it and type in a value directly I took care to make sure that voice control works well. The "plus" and "minus" buttons are omitted from the document tab flow, but they are still present in t 18:29:48 he accessibility tree 18:30:04 Adam_Page: Also a little bit of high-contrast mode finesse 18:30:36 Adam_Page: I think that covers it! I also updated the "accessibility features" 18:31:09 Matt_King: So you also replaced the date-picker spin button on the "patterns" page 18:31:38 Matt_King: With collapsible listbox, we deprecated an example. So we have an editorial precedent for deprecating examples. 18:31:46 Matt_King: We could deprecate this or delete it entirely 18:31:59 Matt_King: We deprecated that listbox example because we thought people might be using it 18:32:17 Matt_King: In this case, though, I don't know if there's value in deprecating versus just deleting 18:32:32 Matt_King: The only way to get to that deprecated listbox is via the index 18:33:01 Matt_King: We changed the title to say "deprecated" so that the deprecation is apparent even when it appears in the index 18:33:06 Matt_King: But the other option is just to remove 18:33:15 Matt_King: I don't know which is better in this case 18:33:30 Adam_Page: Me neither. I'm just learning about this deprecation pattern 18:33:52 Matt_King: I kind of like having a record of deprecation even if we don't think people are using it 18:34:08 Matt_King: It's not like we have a lot of deprecated content like this which is acting like baggage... 18:34:25 Adam_Page: Yeah, that sounds good to me. I will restore it and add the deprecation message 18:35:03 Matt_King: We'll review informally while you make that change, and assign formal reviews next time 18:35:05 Adam_Page: Sounds good 18:35:21 Matt_King: This is awesome. You delivered quickly and very comprehensively Thank you, Adam_Page! 18:35:45 Topic: PR 3213: Update SkipTo feature to version 5.8 18:35:49 Adam_Page has joined #aria-apg 18:36:22 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3213 18:36:35 Matt_King: A few weeks ago, I gave jongund some feedback (especially on group labeling) 18:36:54 Matt_King: The skipTo feature that is at the top of every page comes from a shared script inside of content/shared/js 18:37:07 Matt_King: jongund copies that in directly from what he maintains in his skipTo repository 18:37:15 Matt_King: This is version 5.8 of the script 18:37:38 Matt_King: The pull request has been updated,but I can't tell what exactly has changed 18:38:03 Matt_King: As a screen reader user, I have found the extra information in the group label to be not helpful 18:38:30 jongund: There is in the actual group label, information about the number of headings and labels 18:38:41 Matt_King: I'd like it removed from the screen reader label of the group 18:40:33 Matt_King: When I go from one group to another group, JAWS reads the group label before it reads the menu item. So I'm on the APG homepage, and I open the skipTo. When it first opens, it's not particularly distracting. But when I'm navigating the menu (I get to "Complimentary" which is the third landmark 18:41:32 Matt_King: This might be a general problem with putting groups in menus, but it just makes it harder to understand the menu 18:41:40 jongund: Should we give the group an empty heading? 18:42:02 Matt_King: I think, since there is a group of landmark regions and a group of headings... 18:42:50 Matt_King: I think if it just said "landmark regions" instead of the number of landmark regions. And "headings". 18:43:58 Matt_King: Maybe the thing that makes it hard to understand (at least to me) is adding the number. Because there are are a lot of numbers elsewhere in this text 18:44:22 jongund: Okay, I can remove the number 18:44:42 Matt_King: I don't care if you leave the number in visually; it's just redundant information for a screen reader user 18:45:30 jongund: The reason for the number is because there are so many items that they can visually fill up the screen 18:46:42 jongund: Regarding the scrolling behavior; people can try it out and share some feedback 18:46:55 Matt_King: What does this mean, "labels are always visible"? 18:47:08 jongund: If there are a lot of landmarks on the page, you wouldn't even see the headings group 18:47:20 jongund: I clip them so that if there's more, there will be a scrollbar 18:47:39 Matt_King: So it's separately visually scrollable with the mouse or keyboard 18:47:57 jongund: That's right 18:48:10 jongund: The menu is visually smaller, and there's an "about skipTo" message at the bottom 18:48:42 Matt_King: Oh, right. That should say something about it being an external link. Right now, it just says "about skipTo.js". It doesn't say that it's going to another website 18:48:47 jongund: It only opens a dialog 18:49:01 Matt_King: Ah, yes. And from there, it gives you an option to go to another site 18:49:12 Matt_King: Okay, so no one is going to leave APG without realizing that they are leaving APG 18:49:28 Matt_King: Okay, we need some reviewers 18:49:56 Matt_King: We don't need a code review (this code isn't meant to be pedagogical code for others; it's only infrastructure) 18:50:04 Matt_King: Though if anyone wants to review the code, that's great! 18:50:17 Matt_King: I'm mostly interested in the functionality, both with and without a screen reader 18:50:20 arigilmore: I can try 18:50:29 Matt_King: Thank you, arigilmore! I will assign you 18:52:00 Topic: Issue 1772 - dialog tab rings 18:52:24 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1772 18:52:37 Adam_Page: We had editorial feedback about trapping of dialogs 18:52:53 Adam_Page: We were updating one of the "understanding" sections for WCAG 18:53:21 Adam_Page: My knee jerk reaction was to come back here and make the APG pattern imitate the native dialog. And remove the keyboard trapping from the APG example 18:53:48 Adam_Page: When I started to do a little research, I found a four-year-old debate of the merits of trapping versus non-trapping of dialogs 18:54:35 Adam_Page: One of the more recent (and not mentioned in that discussion) reasons the HTML group chose not to trap focus in the dialog is that the pattern has been used maliciously to trap users inside the model and convince them to disclose sensitive information 18:55:04 Matt_King: I don't know how that would be possible given that the dialog is required to have a close/cancel button (which the HTML dialog could absolutely enforce) 18:55:20 Matt_King: That sounds like a red herring of an argument to me 18:55:48 Adam_Page: I'm curious about it myself. I took it at face value that maybe the discussions in the HTML was based on custom implementations that they had seen, which existed prior to the standard 18:56:27 Matt_King: Certainly someone could do that with JavaScript. I won't even try to wear an editor's hat, here. But I do have very strong opinions 18:56:57 Matt_King: I haven't met a single blind screen reader user who thinks it's a good idea to be tabbing away into the chrome. It's so disorienting! 18:57:12 Matt_King: For one, you don't have good clues that you've left the webpage 18:57:35 Matt_King: There are a gazillion keys for getting out of the web page, just like there are a gazillion keys for getting out of the content of a native app 18:58:00 Matt_King: Now that we treat the web page like the content of a native app... Why does the browser thing it's so special that it thinks it should be in the tab ring? 18:58:14 Matt_King: That's just my take--are you using the browser, or are you using the web page? 18:58:36 Matt_King: When you open a native app, you can tab out of the native app to the Finder or the dock, etc. 18:58:46 s/you can/you can't/ 18:59:07 Adam_Page: I don't think it goes beyond me. It caught my curiosity, but no one is champing at the bit to make any changes here 18:59:17 Adam_Page: We can certainly just drop it 18:59:30 Matt_King: I wish there was a way to get the native dialog to work like the APG dialog! 19:00:20 Adam_Page: I'm okay leaving it there. I'll regroup with the Task Force and let them know that we had this conversation 19:01:38 Matt_King: Okay, we're out of time. Thanks to everyone for all the great conversations! 19:01:45 s/conversations/contributions/ 19:02:29 Zakim, end the meeting 19:02:29 As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Matt_King, lola, arigilmore, Adam_Page, howard-e, jongund 19:02:32 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 19:02:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/05-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 19:02:40 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:02:40 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:02:47 rrsagent, leave 19:02:47 I see no action items