13:54:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:54:06 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/07/24-wcag2ict-irc
13:54:06 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:54:07 <Zakim> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:54:08 <maryjom> zakim, clear agenda
13:54:08 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:54:16 <maryjom> chair:  Mary Jo Mueller
13:54:30 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
13:54:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/24-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
13:54:42 <maryjom> Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
13:54:42 <Zakim> ok, maryjom
13:54:53 <maryjom> agenda+ Announcements
13:55:37 <maryjom> agenda+ PR proprosal approvals
14:00:22 <bbailey> bbailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:25 <maryjom> regrets: Phil Day
14:00:28 <bbailey> present+
14:02:15 <ChrisLoiselle> scribe: ChrisLoiselle
14:02:23 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
14:03:29 <LauraM> LauraM has joined #wcag2ict
14:03:37 <LauraM> present+
14:03:52 <ChrisLoiselle> Zakim , take up next
14:04:06 <ChrisLoiselle> Zakim, take up next
14:04:06 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:04:18 <Mike_Pluke> Mike_Pluke has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:56 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: AG working group is onboard with us republishing WCAG2ICT once we've covered our issues and incorporated our changes.
14:04:59 <Daniel> present+
14:05:23 <bbailey> q+ to ask just new date not version number per see ?
14:05:24 <ChrisLoiselle> ... We also did some editorial text updates.
14:06:05 <ChrisLoiselle> ... editors to go through entire note to update edits on formatting , for example bold , not bold type updats.
14:06:16 <bbailey> q-
14:06:40 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: No new version or new date?
14:07:00 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: Just republish and syncing with EN.
14:07:12 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: We don't version. It is just an issue of note date.
14:07:46 <bbailey> s/No new version or new date?/No new version, just new date?/
14:07:46 <Mike_Pluke> present+
14:08:00 <ChrisLoiselle> Zakim, take up next
14:08:00 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- PR proprosal approvals -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:08:05 <maryjom> TOPIC: Issue 704: 1.4.4 Resize Text: EN 301 549 did not incorporate our updated notes
14:08:22 <maryjom> Link to issue 704: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/704
14:08:36 <maryjom> Link to MATF research regarding mobile text resizing: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/3#issuecomment-2490573410
14:09:02 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: Provides link to mobile task force too, as there were mobile issues opened on this topic.
14:09:41 <ChrisLoiselle> ... some operating systems like iOS , like headings, don't scale at 200 percent. It is somewhat less.
14:10:11 <ChrisLoiselle> ... headings become less usable on small devices. I believe that is why we came up with alternative language
14:10:56 <bbailey> q+ to ask if MATF still work in progress -- but do they have proposed replacement language for 1.4.4 ?
14:11:22 <ChrisLoiselle> ... MaryJo talks to 2024 WCAG2ICT current note vs. 2013 note.
14:12:17 <ChrisLoiselle> Note 2 on WCAG2ICT talks to user settings in platform.
14:12:22 <GreggVan> q+
14:12:43 <ChrisLoiselle> EN thought that was introducing exception that wasn't in WCAG and kept notes from 2013.
14:12:49 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:13:15 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: Lets keep the conversation on non web software first.
14:13:20 <maryjom> ack bbailey
14:13:20 <Zakim> bbailey, you wanted to ask if MATF still work in progress -- but do they have proposed replacement language for 1.4.4 ?
14:13:46 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: MATF is working but have they looked at 1.4.4 too?
14:13:56 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: I think it is as conversation level.
14:14:22 <ChrisLoiselle> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%201.4.4
14:14:57 <ChrisLoiselle> They are talking to it per the above issues in their repo as of June 18th
14:15:25 <bbailey> See column three at https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/3#issuecomment-2490573410
14:15:50 <maryjom> Link to WCAG2Mobile: https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2mobile-22/
14:16:12 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: Do you have the link?
14:16:17 <bbailey> Column 3 second table parenthetical
14:16:35 <maryjom> Link to the MATF issue 3 on 1.4.4: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/3
14:16:37 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: Yes, research link is provided on read issue 3 on their current note for 1.4.4
14:16:42 <maryjom> q?
14:16:46 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:17:21 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: Mobile Task force seems to be part of ICT. It makes it hard as EN covers mobile.
14:18:24 <ChrisLoiselle> On the 2024 note, it reads that if it doesn't support, you don't have to do anything. If OS doesn't provide it, you don't have to do anything.
14:18:29 <maryjom> Note 2 (Added): For non-web software, there may be cases where the platform provides zoom features, but it does not scale all text up to 200%. In such cases, authors are encouraged to meet user needs by scaling text to the extent supported by user settings in the platform.
14:18:52 <bbailey> iOS -- widely regarded as perfectly satisfactory on this accessibility detail -- only does 153% for "large title" AND THAT IS FINE
14:18:56 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: I pasted in a proposed text.
14:19:28 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: We can't suggest WCAG make changes but we can say when in non-web do something different.
14:19:39 <GreggVan> q+
14:19:45 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:19:50 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:20:10 <bbailey> q+ to say that is too much of a loop hole
14:20:50 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: reads as scaling text only as much as the OS does it for you. Still reads as not required to do anything. Provision talks to loss of functionality, correct?
14:21:18 <ChrisLoiselle> It needs to say it needs to be different , but not in a note, as it is an exception.
14:21:46 <ChrisLoiselle> should read as doesn't apply as written, then state why without that why being in a note.
14:22:11 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#resize-text
14:22:12 <bbailey> Except for captions and images of text, text can be resized without assistive technology up to 200 percent without loss of content or functionality.
14:22:20 <ChrisLoiselle> state need to support without loss of functionality aspect and when  you zoom it doesn't destroy content.
14:22:21 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:23:45 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: Content doesn't break when zoomed is what you are after. Original SC was on 200 percent as all browsers supported it.
14:24:27 <maryjom> ack bbailey
14:24:27 <Zakim> bbailey, you wanted to say that is too much of a loop hole
14:25:35 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: If the platform doesn't provide anything , it is a pass. It didn't seem strong enough to me.
14:25:45 <maryjom> Normative language would be better as: Except for captions and images of text, text can be resized without assistive technology up to 200 percent or supports the platform-supplied text resizing capabilities up to 200 percent without loss of content or functionality.
14:26:04 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: You can change it when it doesn't apply to web content.
14:26:45 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: If I have a document that is on the web, then take it off the web and vice versa, you'd need to follow appropriate steps.
14:26:45 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:27:10 <ChrisLoiselle> Mike: I don't think we have a comment like that.
14:27:11 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:27:24 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: We try to follow WCAG when we can.
14:27:24 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:27:56 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: On closed system, there is something.
14:28:10 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:28:33 <bbailey> Proposed:  NOTE 2: For non-web software, there may be cases where the platform does not scale all text up to 200% @@but does provide a zoom feature@@. In such cases, authors are encouraged to meet user needs by scaling text to the extent supported by user settings in the platform.
14:28:37 <bbailey> q+
14:28:39 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:29:10 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: I pasted MaryJo's proposed note 2 and added words.
14:29:49 <Mike_Pluke> Q+
14:30:11 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: I did talk to normative change in IRC.
14:31:20 <ChrisLoiselle> Mike: We have one requirement and it is different on closed vs. not closed.
14:31:34 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:32:33 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: for normative change, wordsmiths in Google doc.
14:34:50 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: The normative change doesn't have if platform doesn't have capability to resize. I think the wording should be or , if the platform provides...
14:35:04 <bbailey> q+ to say 2 problems
14:35:39 <bbailey> 1 of 2) doesn't require minimal features of platform
14:36:29 <bbailey> 2 of 2) probably we should have exception for closed when size is .25 inch (or whatever)
14:36:51 <maryjom> Link to google doc
14:36:53 <maryjom> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VN1LQG_iI6ySWSc-XBgfE6d_aHQRUy_CjMGktPdFenM/edit?usp=sharing
14:37:00 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:37:17 <maryjom> ack bbailey
14:37:17 <Zakim> bbailey, you wanted to say 2 problems
14:38:02 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: I think this is similar to what we have in 508. If we allow platform features, then we have expectations on those platforms.
14:38:46 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: We don't want to failing iOS when iOS is doing well.
14:39:36 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: Text size vs. zooming is different.  You want to cover the reflow , etc.
14:39:37 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:39:42 <maryjom> ack Mike_Pluke
14:40:01 <ChrisLoiselle> Mike: no other comment.
14:40:01 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:41:09 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:41:15 <bbailey> 3of2) wouldn't want iOS current feature set to be a fail
14:42:00 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: Wordsmiths on the 1.4.4 text resizing language.
14:43:20 <ChrisLoiselle> group continues to wordsmith on Google Doc.
14:44:13 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: Do we have text resizing on platforms, Mike?
14:44:24 <ChrisLoiselle> Mike: I don't believe so.
14:44:44 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: I believe the text in Google doc provides relief to mobile per what we have here.
14:44:45 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:45:17 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: This meets original intent on WCAG on the not breaking when zooming to 200 percent.
14:46:14 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: We'd want to split out documents vs. non-web software.
14:46:38 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: Documents shouldn't have to add code.
14:46:52 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: talks to dialog boxes being laid out dynamically.
14:47:08 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: It may be more of an issue in web content.
14:47:23 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: Mike?
14:47:39 <ChrisLoiselle> Mike: Looks good , to capturing essentials.
14:47:50 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: this would be an actual change and not a note.
14:48:02 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: This would be a different provision for non-web software.
14:48:03 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:48:23 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: Suggested normative change for non-web software alone and documents?
14:48:59 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: More important for documents.
14:49:50 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: I will provide link to table in work for week https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Work-for-the-week  , please review further and provide feedback on the doc please for next week
14:49:51 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:49:58 <maryjom> TOPIC: Issue 612 - 2.5.7 Dragging Movements - "underlying platform software" vs "user agent or platform software
14:50:08 <maryjom> Link to issue 612: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/612
14:50:16 <GreggVan> +1
14:50:23 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:50:27 <maryjom> Link to comment with instances of “underlying platform software”: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/612#issuecomment-2880957938
14:50:36 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: we made adjustments to the bolding.
14:50:38 <maryjom> Link to PR 734: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/734
14:51:55 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: Shows changes , example shown is 1.4.11 user agent and platform software are bolded vs. not bold.
14:52:01 <maryjom> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Incorporate PR 734, making use of "underlying platform software" and "user agent or other platform software" consistent throughout
14:52:09 <GreggVan> +1
14:52:09 <ChrisLoiselle> +1
14:52:12 <Mike_Pluke> +1
14:52:38 <bbailey> +1
14:52:43 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: Will you send Mike a list of the edits?
14:52:56 <maryjom>  RESOLUTION: Incorporate PR 734, making use of "underlying platform software" and "user agent or other platform software" consistent throughout
14:53:05 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: Yes, once it is done. Past PRs gathering is happening.
14:53:06 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:53:44 <maryjom> TOPIC: Issue 740: 2.1.1 Keyboard - Should we add a precondition scoping this SC?
14:53:56 <maryjom> Link to issue 740: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/740
14:54:07 <maryjom> Link to PR 741: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/741
14:54:13 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: Even without a formal draft, while we are editing, we can talk to each other to make sure we are all aware of same items.
14:54:14 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:54:52 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: On notes update to 2.1.1 keyboard, we were talking about a pre-condition
14:55:15 <ChrisLoiselle> ... various proposals provided in PR
14:55:36 <ChrisLoiselle> q+
14:56:19 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: 1, 2 and 3 are out.
14:56:26 <maryjom> ack ChrisLoiselle
14:56:42 <Mike_Pluke> Q+
14:56:46 <ChrisLoiselle> ChrisLoiselle: I support 4
14:56:47 <maryjom> ack Mike_Pluke
14:57:04 <bbailey> I support option 4
14:57:17 <ChrisLoiselle> Mike: If we go with option 3, we may need a note on what would come under device independent keyboard interface.
14:57:20 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:57:27 <ChrisLoiselle> Mike: I support 4
14:57:56 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: Note too on device-independent ?
14:58:30 <ChrisLoiselle> Mike: On screen vs. not , concept of device-independent keyboard interface may benefit understanding of what we mean.
14:58:41 <bbailey> q+
14:58:41 <maryjom> DRAFT RESOLUTION: For 2.1.1 Keyboard, incorporate Proposal 4 into the editor's draft, as-is
14:58:46 <ChrisLoiselle> Mike: proposal 4 is fine.
14:58:47 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:58:47 <maryjom> ack bbailey
14:59:09 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: same as a kiosk to information ?
14:59:37 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: I wouldn't want to support the easy approach vs. on screen keyboard.
14:59:57 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: I think a discussion offline is worth it. We'd have to write that in to closed product specficiation.
14:59:58 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
15:00:06 <ChrisLoiselle> rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/24-wcag2ict-minutes.html ChrisLoiselle
15:00:22 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: I believe there are notes on this in closed functionality.
15:00:23 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
15:00:32 <maryjom> DRAFT RESOLUTION: For 2.1.1 Keyboard, incorporate Proposal 4 into the editor's draft, as-is
15:00:50 <bbailey> +1
15:00:52 <ChrisLoiselle> +1 to proposal 4
15:00:54 <Mike_Pluke> +1
15:01:11 <GreggVan> NOTE:   "a device-independent keyboard interface service, " refers to the platform service that provides keystrokes to any software running on the platform.   Inclusion of an on-screen keyboard  can be done as well but does not meet this since it does not allow for the use of keyboard alternatives.
15:01:13 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: For 2.1.1 Keyboard, incorporate Proposal 4 into the editor's draft, as-is
15:02:01 <GreggVan>  NOTE:   "a device-independent keyboard interface service, " refers to the platform service that provides keystrokes to any software running on the platform.   Inclusion of an on-screen keyboard  can be done as well but does not meet this requirement since it does not allow for the use of keyboard alternatives.
15:02:19 <ChrisLoiselle> MaryJo: We will cover the note next week
15:02:28 <ChrisLoiselle> will continue 1.4.4 dicussion
15:02:42 <ChrisLoiselle> will continue issue 736 as well.
15:03:01 <ChrisLoiselle> splitting that note in to two distinct would be worthwhile
15:03:28 <ChrisLoiselle> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/24-wcag2ict-minutes.html ChrisLoiselle
15:44:08 <maryjom> zakim, end meeting
15:44:08 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been bbailey, LauraM, Daniel, Mike_Pluke
15:44:10 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:44:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/24-wcag2ict-minutes.html Zakim
15:44:17 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, maryjom; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:44:18 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:44:19 <maryjom> present+
15:44:33 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
15:44:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/24-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
15:44:46 <maryjom> rrsagent, bye
15:44:46 <RRSAgent> I see no action items