19:08:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
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19:08:40 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
19:08:41 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
19:08:41 <ChrisCuellar> ChrisCuellar has joined #aria-at
19:08:46 <jugglinmike> meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
19:09:16 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
19:09:20 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
19:09:24 <jugglinmike> present+ Joe_Humbert
19:09:26 <ChrisCuellar> present+
19:09:29 <jugglinmike> present+ Carmen
19:09:31 <jugglinmike> present+ howard-e
19:09:37 <jugglinmike> present+ mfairchild
19:09:49 <jugglinmike> present+ louis
19:09:53 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
19:10:00 <jugglinmike> present+ James
19:10:04 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
19:10:21 <jugglinmike> Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
19:10:25 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/wiki/July-24%2C-2025-Agenda
19:11:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Requests for changes to agenda?
19:11:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next CG meeting: Wednesday July 30
19:11:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday August 11
19:11:52 <jugglinmike> Topic: Current status
19:12:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: we have accordion in the words and three other plans in "draft review"
19:12:29 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I opened a pull request for the vertical temperature slider
19:12:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're going to be ready next week, then--for people to take a look
19:12:57 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: We need to mark it as draft
19:13:27 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: ...just as soon as it appears in the app
19:13:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I meant to have the "radio" test plan ready for today, but it's not. Hopefully it will be next week
19:14:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: IsaDC and I have been working on tabs
19:14:27 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: There are two more tests for me to modify, then it will be ready for your review, Matt_King. Expect that by tomorrow
19:14:51 <jugglinmike> Topic: Re-run JAWS report for color viewer slider
19:14:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We still have two conflicts
19:15:18 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I was working on getting those conflicts resolved
19:15:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There were originally conflicts related to Hadi's results, and those got resolved
19:16:06 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I think I will retest for the remaining conflicts because there was a conflict between Windows 10 and 11, so I need to re-run those two with the latest JAWS version
19:16:15 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I can do that after this meeting
19:17:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Looking at the conflicts that are in here--I don't know if this was related to Windows 10 versus Windows 11.
19:17:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Joe_Humbert was getting the min/max announcement while Hadi was not. It was just for one command
19:17:35 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Yes, we retested this during a meeting, and it was flaky
19:17:55 <jugglinmike> louis: Weren't we going to wait for the July JAWS update before we re-tested some commands?
19:18:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think that was for disclosure, but that makes sense here, too
19:18:26 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I could try with the JAWS bot because the JAWS bot is available on the staging server
19:18:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we should proceed by editing what we have here instead of starting over
19:19:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hadi was using the May update, and Joe_Humbert was using the March update. Neither one of these was with the July release!
19:19:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think IsaDC should edit Hadi's results using the July build
19:19:47 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I am currently using the version that Hadi was testing on
19:19:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: can you update to the July build, instead?
19:19:59 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I can try!
19:20:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That would be really good--if you could re-do that one test and use the July update
19:21:05 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: It looks like the latest public release is from July, so yes, I can run the July build
19:21:51 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: A couple weeks ago, I posted a question: would it be better if I got an actual PC to do testing (so that I'm not using Windows in a virtual machine that is running on old macOS architecture)
19:21:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That shouldn't make a difference
19:22:09 <jugglinmike> Topic: Run of accordion test plan
19:22:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: there are three issues--2 related to NVDA conflicts and 1 related to JAWS
19:24:45 <jugglinmike> louis: We can defer discussion on the JAWS conflicts because Joe_Humbert is going to update to the new release and re-test
19:25:04 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I'll make sure I'm using the latest JAWS and the latest Chrome. I'm using Windows 10, though
19:25:11 <jugglinmike> louis: And I'm using Windows 11
19:25:20 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Hopefully that doesn't impact our results, but it could
19:25:34 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: Issue #1270: "Navigate backwards to an expanded accordion header" (Accordion, Test 2
19:25:44 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1270
19:26:04 <jugglinmike> louis: I got strange output where it says "heading" but it doesn't say anything about the heading level
19:26:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I was trying this myself earlier, and I think I was not getting the same result as you...
19:27:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Joe_Humbert, your output is almost perfect--it's exactly what NVDA should do. We know for sure you're using the correct version of NVDA
19:27:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For the first time, I took James' suggestion and tested with an NVDA portable copy. The only thing I don't like about that approach is that it takes over a minute to start
19:28:09 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I've been using a portable copy, and I always reset the defaults when I'm testing
19:28:51 <jugglinmike> James: The recommendation was that people make a portable copy that they don't use so that they don't need to reset it
19:29:08 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Well, I just download NVDA and use it directly, immediately
19:29:31 <jugglinmike> James: Yes, I think the recommendation is more useful for people who are using the screen reader under test in their daily lives
19:30:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we're aligned, then--everyone is testing the way they need to be testing. But the two testers are still getting quite different results
19:31:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Joe_Humbert, is there a chance of transcription error, since you aren't using the speech history?
19:31:29 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: No. I am very careful and go back and double-check
19:33:27 <jugglinmike> James: Louis reports that the screen reader says "billing address" twice, but that phrase doesn't appear in the reported output
19:33:57 <jugglinmike> louis: That's a typo in the error description. It's actually a different piece of information which is duplicated
19:34:36 <jugglinmike> James: Heading levels never spoken by NVDA when it's in focus mode
19:35:10 <jugglinmike> James: The fact that the heading level appears in the output reported by Joe_Humbert suggests that NVDA was in browse mode at the time--perhaps it switched to browse mode
19:35:31 <jugglinmike> James: When I switch to browse mode, it includes a "boop" sound at the end to suggest that it is in browse mode
19:36:15 <jugglinmike> James: I think the issue is with our instruction to testers to begin by ensuring they are in focus mode. If you switch to focus mode yourself and then press "shift+tab", then it will not switch
19:37:10 <jugglinmike> James: [demonstrates the behavior of NVDA across different contexts]
19:37:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is an interesting thing. Because this is a navigation test, the way it actually switches is what we expect
19:38:05 <jugglinmike> James: When we're testing specifically, "navigate backwards after switching to focus mode"
19:38:39 <jugglinmike> James: And there is no way to check your current mode in NVDA. When instructed to verify the mode, testers much toggle back and forth, and that changes NVDA's subsequent behavior
19:39:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So if you follow our instructions to a "T" in this case, you get the wrong results
19:39:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But if you test for focus mode in a way that doesn't interfere with the test...
19:39:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We say "navigate backwards in focus mode". That is the test
19:39:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Do we have a "mode switch" assertion?
19:40:02 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: No, because this is a switch in reverse
19:40:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Ah, that's right, we intentionally don't test for cases like this
19:42:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Loius, the way Joe_Humbert did it is correct. I think we need to change your results
19:43:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know if we're going to do something to our testing instructions as a result of this discussion
19:43:23 <jugglinmike> James: We could make an add-on for NVDA that reports the current mode
19:44:23 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: This also impacts automation. In both JAWS and NVDA, we likewise don't have a programmatic way to detect the current mode, so we toggle mode once, and potentially toggle a second time
19:46:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This may indeed be a relevant problem for automation. Let's add it to the agenda of the next "automation subgroup" meeting
19:46:07 <jugglinmike> Topic: TPAC
19:46:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're short on time, so we'll talk about this next week
19:47:02 <jugglinmike> Topic: Output normalization
19:47:09 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at-app/issues/1462
19:47:16 <jugglinmike> scribe+ Carmen
19:47:47 <Carmen> jugglinmike we're commiting to automation in the recent weeks and we have expanded it's power and extent in which we are relying on it
19:48:19 <Carmen> It has surfaced some new issues that we need to walk through. One of them is normalization
19:48:45 <Carmen> mattl Do we store a normalized state or do we normalize every time we want to compare ?
19:48:55 <Carmen> And never store the normalized form
19:49:06 <Carmen> jugglinmike we never store the normalized form
19:49:34 <Carmen> I do make the distinction in my issue. We have to discuss when we normalize and what we normalize
19:49:49 <Carmen> The two time we consider normalization is when we display the output and when you compare the output
19:50:04 <Carmen> Maybe we can save the concept of saving as an implementation detail
19:50:19 <Carmen> Folks will interact with this when they are reading it and when they are using it for comparaison
19:50:34 <Carmen> Is it easier to talk about what normalization should happen and then when. I thought they are linked
19:50:46 <Carmen> mattl A part of me thinks we should never display normalized outputs
19:51:20 <Carmen> @james We don't want to see (didnt catch it)
19:51:41 <Carmen> mattl I thought the bot wasn't doing what is was supposed to do
19:52:27 <Carmen> @james Mike has a list on his issue which is asserted that there are discrepency that don't have any bering on the output for the end user. I am not sure I agree. Punction is very important for fluctuation
19:52:32 <Carmen> mattl I agree, specially on VO
19:53:00 <Carmen> @james Unicode group separator would never make it to the speach output so that is quite different to punctuation which does make it to the user
19:53:19 <Carmen> mattl I agree with what you said. The unicode separators fall in their own class
19:53:45 <Carmen> I don't think they show up in screen history. We only got it from the the JAWS bot
19:53:51 <Carmen> jugglinmike that is right, only with JAWS bot
19:54:31 <Carmen> There are some other one too. It's good to know that the punctuation can have bearing. I should ask: How easy is it for you as a tester to consistently report that information. Do you know if there should be a dash betwen ctrl and alt when you listen to it
19:54:45 <Carmen> @james I guess it doesn't matter because that is why we are copy pasting
19:54:59 <Carmen> mattl VO captures all punctuations
19:55:46 <Carmen> jugglinmike I like that but I have to say the two reluctantcies I have is that we are commiting to those tools being necessary part of the manual testing
19:55:59 <Carmen> mattl I guess sighted testeers will se them
19:56:30 <Carmen> @james I think the daily AT users have an intuition for the punctuation but there is a subtle difference between a period and a colon or a semi colon and a coma
19:56:53 <Carmen> From that point of view the answer is that a human intuition about punctuation is much less accurate
19:57:25 <Carmen> mattl So what you are saying is that we def want to capture the speech output faithfully. We want the actual string coming from the AT
19:57:56 <Carmen> jugglinmike That represents is a difference or the way we have talked historically. Maybe we would need to do some documentation. But it is helpful to know our expectations from human testers and the machine
19:59:14 <Carmen> @james you mention empty spaces. IF peole use the speech histry for NVDA they will have two space character between chunks of outputs where chunks could be undefined. But usually means if it says Heading Level 3 there will be two spaces. And so those in the speech by NVDA are separate. When it is rended to text it put two spaces so that you have a
19:59:14 <Carmen> better chance to determine where those gaps were
19:59:52 <Carmen> jugglinmike In terms of the algorithm for normalization we might want to normalize more than two spaces. it might be good to normalize it because we wouldn't want to invalid our algorithm.
20:00:12 <Carmen> @james If a string on a page ended with a space, the speech output will include a space and not say a space
20:00:37 <Carmen> There are some differences
20:01:27 <Carmen> mattl this is why the spaces conversation was important. In JAWS new lines helps understand what was part of the output or the screen that is read or what JAWS is telling you about the test in the screen. So this is where maintaining the original output can be helpful
20:02:28 <Carmen> But when it comes to comaring historicaly because NVDA and JAWS and VO they might make changes that doesn't affect what is spoken but do affect the output. Maybe they use a line instead of two spaces. So I think that when we are doing comparaisons that we would always compare normalized values so any double white space becomes 1 white space and
20:02:28 <Carmen> always the same regardless of the new line
20:03:04 <Carmen> @james I don't think it will contain two outpts. That is an implementation of the speech details. What gets sent to the synthetizer is a series of commands. It s a whole thing
20:03:41 <Carmen> I think I agree that what humans are seeing should reflect what was gathered and internally when you compare that is an implementation output and a lot more normalization is appropriate
20:04:32 <Carmen> Carmen Next step is to outline normalization in the issue and reach out again
20:04:44 <Carmen> We can also send an email to everyone in the CG
20:26:09 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has joined #aria-at
20:26:20 <jugglinmike> zakim, end the meeting
20:26:20 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Joe_Humbert, ChrisCuellar, Carmen, howard-e, mfairchild, louis, IsaDC, James, Matt_King
20:26:22 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:26:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/24-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
20:26:31 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
20:26:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
20:44:02 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
20:44:02 <RRSAgent> I see no action items