14:05:51 RRSAgent has joined #wot-td 14:05:55 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/07/23-wot-td-irc 14:05:58 meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF - Slot 1 14:07:37 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Andrei_Ciortea, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Daniel_Peintner, Jeremy_Lemee, Danai_Vachtsevanou 14:07:46 andrei has joined #wot-td 14:07:57 jeremy has joined #wot-td 14:07:58 present+ Michael_Koster, Tomoaki_Mizushima 14:08:06 chair: Ege, Koster 14:08:11 rrsagent, make log public 14:08:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:08:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/23-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:09:04 cris8 has joined #wot-td 14:09:40 agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#July_23-24%2C_2025 14:10:43 topic: Guests 14:10:51 https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/ 14:11:20 ek: (describes the notes around the W3C Patent Policy) 14:11:21 scribenick: Ege_Korkan 14:11:34 i/describes/scribenick: kaz/ 14:11:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:11:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/23-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:11:51 ek: can we review the minutes tomorrow? 14:11:55 kaz: that is good 14:12:02 ek: no objections, will be reviewed tomorrow 14:12:52 topic: Manageable Affordances 14:12:59 ek: here are they from webagents cg 14:13:00 https://github.com/w3c-cg/webagents/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3Ascenario 14:13:32 ca: I will also give an overview 14:14:14 ... I want to have an open discussion. please share feedback 14:14:52 ... this work item started some time ago 14:15:44 ... like actions that can be queried after starting 14:16:25 ... I am now looking into iot platforms 14:16:32 ... surprisingly, it is not that common 14:17:53 ... I have collected a first set and I am going through them in more detail 14:19:57 ... we also have proposals from some time ago, including one from me 14:20:22 i|I have|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/main/proposals/hypermedia-control-3/yetAnotherActionModel.pdf Yet another Action model| 14:20:24 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:20:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/23-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:21:39 ... there were proposals to change TDs when action starts, use new terms in action level, and mine was about using TMs for the action modeling 14:21:41 i|can we review|scribenick: EgeKorkan| 14:21:54 i|can we review|topic: Minutes| 14:21:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:21:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/23-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:22:09 q+ Danai 14:22:45 ... do you know some platforms that have this feature 14:22:55 dv: what are the issues with updating TDs 14:23:21 ca: can someone explain the reasoning? 14:23:25 ek: you can go ahead first 14:23:41 q+ 14:23:58 ca: avoiding overfetching TD, having static TDs to program against 14:24:01 ack danai 14:24:05 q+ 14:24:06 i|Patent Policy|Patent Policy because we have guests from the Autonomous Agents on the Web CG| 14:24:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:24:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/23-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:24:40 dp: there were security concerns 14:24:48 present+ Alexandru_Sorici 14:25:10 thanks :) 14:26:14 dp: also if the TD keeps changing, it is difficult program 14:26:49 s/it is difficult program/it is ensure proper signing 14:27:14 i|avoiding|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/main/planning/work-items/analysis/analysis-manageable-affordances.md analysis-manageable-affordances.md 14:27:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:27:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/23-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:27:32 s/it is ensure proper signing/it is difficult ensure proper signing 14:27:56 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:27:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/23-wot-td-minutes.html dape 14:30:22 ek: td changing means updating the td in TDD and in the Consumer. Also the way to program the application program changes, requiring adaption on consumer programmers or the implementations 14:30:53 ... also it is overkill if only an action's availability of operations change 14:31:08 ... might make sense if the whole action dissappears due to state change 14:31:20 ca: do you see this pattern in agent systems 14:32:30 dv: we work with the assumption that the TD can change. Agents are expected to continuously observe the TD 14:32:56 ... so this removes the obstacle of updating the TD 14:33:52 ... the alternative I have seen is that when the agent starts the action, a new resource is created that can be used again 14:33:56 q+ 14:33:56 q? 14:33:58 ack d 14:34:08 ... maybe others can comment 14:34:28 q+ 14:35:09 q+ 14:36:23 ca: creating the resource goes a bit in the direction that I mentioned with TMs 14:37:49 ca: How does the agent get the action resource to be used later on? is it a protocol in the end? 14:39:07 q- later 14:39:27 ac: for us it is about hypermedia APIs. We consider them dynamic 14:40:39 ... the semantic model is hardcoded in the action 14:40:52 ... if a new model of an action appears, the agent ignores it 14:42:16 ca: we also need to consider the case of seeing actions created by others 14:42:37 ac: there are also research on putting pre and post conditions for actions 14:42:46 ack andrei 14:46:07 ek: there are overlaps with TM-based approach and the work from Danai and Andrei 14:46:59 ek: we should look into the physical case, so what is happening in real world 14:47:54 q? 14:48:10 kaz: it would be interesting to explore state machines 14:48:16 ack e 14:48:17 q+ 14:48:20 ack k 14:48:21 q- 14:48:26 ... it would be interesting to combine that with TDs 14:49:21 q+ 14:50:42 ca: how can they express such state machines in a WoT-friendly way 14:50:53 ek: there are always some state machines 14:51:18 s/state machines/state machines, since Volkswagen, etc., are already using state machine as the main controller to organize multiple agents for smart car purposes./ 14:51:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:51:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/23-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:53:13 ca: would there be a common denominator? 14:53:21 ack e 14:53:38 mk: how to design a hypermedia state machine standard 14:53:42 ... that is our question 14:53:53 ... how to build it in an explicit way 14:54:37 ack mjk 14:55:35 ca: If I dig into the bacnet alarms and the microscope example, I could find more uses 14:57:14 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/2107 14:57:43 ek: I think we all agree on trying to describe existing mechanisms 15:00:13 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:00:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/23-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:01:12 q+ 15:01:54 ac: we are starting to wrap our it 15:02:09 q- 15:02:50 ca: this hypermedia state machine can be something to work on together 15:02:56 ... seems to align with the TM idea I had 15:03:34 ek: I think we can meet again towards the end of august or beginning of september 15:04:07 (adjourned) 15:04:20 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:04:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/23-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:04:36 thank you for helping out!