14:02:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #w3process
14:02:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/07/23-w3process-irc
14:02:39 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:02:40 <Zakim> Meeting: Revising W3C Process Community Group
14:03:34 <fantasai> Topic: Review AC Feedback on Process 2025
14:04:23 <fantasai> florian: No additional feedback to handle since we made the Agenda
14:04:32 <fantasai> ... we have 3 pending PRs in response to comments
14:04:48 <fantasai> ... Hoping we can land them both in the ED and in the eventual Process 2025 adopted by the Team
14:04:59 <fantasai> ... Let's also keep some time to discuss the Guide article requested by BBC
14:05:11 <Ian> Ian has joined #w3process
14:05:11 <fantasai> s/BBC/one commenter/
14:05:14 <Ian> present+
14:05:23 <fantasai> Topic: Pull Requests to Review
14:05:57 <fantasai> Subtopic: Fix typo
14:05:58 <brent> brent has joined #w3process
14:06:03 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/process/pull/1075
14:06:13 <fantasai> florian: If Team is happy with fixing the typo, we should take this
14:06:39 <fantasai> Ian: Sounds great
14:06:45 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Merge PR 1075 to fix typo
14:07:19 <fantasai> Subtopic: Editorial reorg of text defining REC statuses
14:07:24 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/process/pull/1079
14:07:39 <fantasai> FLorian: Main point of this one is, one sentence (Defining "recommendation track document")
14:07:50 <fantasai> ... That used to be below an informal summary of 4 statuses
14:08:01 <fantasai> ... The core of this change is to move this sentence to the start of the list of maturity stages
14:08:13 <fantasai> ... A REC trackd document being one in any of those stages
14:08:27 <fantasai> ... The rest of the PR moves paragraphs around without changing them, to make things more readable.
14:08:34 <fantasai> ... (No text changes to any other sentence.)
14:08:40 <fantasai> ... I feel confident this is editorial
14:09:11 <fantasai> Ian: [projects and asks some questions about the PR changes]
14:10:52 <fantasai> Ian: It occurs to me that the happy path and diagram are valuable
14:10:57 <fantasai> ... but they don't capture all the states
14:11:10 <fantasai> ... I'm wondering with an additional tweak to this section might be
14:11:21 <fantasai> ... instead of "consists of", but "the steps to Recommendation"
14:11:32 <fantasai> ... "consists of" is overconstraining
14:11:53 <fantasai> florian: "In summary, the main steps along the Recommendation Track are ..."
14:11:59 <plh> +1
14:12:02 <fantasai> florian: I'd be happy with that. plh? Brent? fantasai?
14:12:10 <fantasai> fantasai: wfm
14:12:14 <fantasai> brent: Makes sense to me
14:12:46 <fantasai> florian: OK, I'll make in GH the suggested tweak, and if we like it we can resolve to adopt the whole thing.
14:13:18 <Ian> "In summary, the W3C Recommendation Track consists of:" -> In summary, the main steps on the W3C Recommendation Track are:"
14:13:20 <fantasai> ... Proposed change is that like 3462 changed to "In summary, the main steps on the W3C Recommendation Track are"
14:13:39 <Ian> Ian: +1
14:13:43 <plh> +1
14:13:49 <florian> +1
14:13:49 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Adopt PR 1079 with additional tweak above.
14:14:27 <fantasai> Subtopic: Editorial tweaks collection for AC Review
14:14:31 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/process/pull/1074
14:14:43 <fantasai> florian: This is a pile of unrelated small tweaks that ppl suggested during review
14:14:50 <fantasai> ... I think they're all fine, and would like to accept all of them
14:14:57 <fantasai> ... One unresolved question, which is comment from TallTed
14:15:05 <fantasai> s/.../Florian:
14:15:17 <fantasai> ... In the midst of this we have a list of 3 items
14:15:50 <fantasai> ... If it was just a sentence, I'd prefer one "or" but since it's a list having multiple it seems multiple "or"s are fine
14:16:14 <fantasai> Ian: Any precedents?
14:16:24 <Ian> (No preference for "or" handling)
14:16:36 <fantasai> Brent: Lean slightly toward Ted's interpretation
14:18:26 <fantasai> fantasai: I don't particularly care either way with the number of "or"s
14:18:40 <fantasai> florian: Ok, since most ppl don't care, and Brent and Ted want it, let's do it
14:18:55 <fantasai> fantasai: Any other comments on this PR?
14:18:55 <Ian> +1 to 1074
14:19:17 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Adopt PR 1074 with removal of excess "or"s as noted.
14:19:35 <Daniel> Daniel has joined #w3process
14:19:36 <fantasai> Subtopic: Adopting these PRs
14:19:58 <fantasai> florian: It's the Team's decision whether top adopt these changes, but since I'm preparing the draft, would be useful to know if Team wants this version
14:20:11 <fantasai> plh: Sounds good to me. Don't have a date for you. How about preparing for 31st of July?
14:20:33 <fantasai> Ian: ??
14:20:37 <fantasai> plh: Yes, with the PRs merged.
14:20:48 <fantasai> Topic: Guide to Member Submissions
14:21:04 <fantasai> florian: plh made a first attempt at updating the Guide, largely taking bits from old Process and adding to existing Guide
14:21:10 <fantasai> ... I made a few suggestions on top of that, which he accepted
14:21:15 <fantasai> ... My take is this is good enough for version 1
14:21:37 <fantasai> ... I think we also do v2, which reduces the amount by which it duplicates the new Process
14:21:44 <fantasai> ... But I think this is good enough to ship, we can iterate later
14:21:48 <plh> +1 to Florian. I'll try to do an other iteration later this week
14:22:11 <fantasai> Ian: Sorry, just went to Guidebook to look for PRs, not seeing it?
14:22:19 <fantasai> florian: Not prepared as a PR yet
14:22:42 <fantasai> plh: The document is not in the Guidebook repo. Maybe need a separate conversation with Coralie to move it into the Guidebook, but don't want to block on that.
14:22:46 <fantasai> ->
14:22:49 <fantasai> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2025Jul/0003.html
14:23:10 <fantasai> florian: My preference would be to land this together with or before Process 2025
14:23:15 <fantasai> ... and then keep working to make it better
14:23:17 <fantasai> plh: Yes
14:23:32 <fantasai> ... Having said that, I don't want to spend a lot of time on it. It's rare to receive Member Submissions these days
14:24:14 <fantasai> Topic: Review of AC Review
14:24:25 <fantasai> florian: Most of the comments from our AC commenter were addressed with our editorial PRs
14:24:38 <fantasai> ... though a few weren't; we responded by email to those
14:24:48 <florian> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2025Jul/0336.html
14:25:17 <fantasai> florian: I don't feel the need to say anything more, does anyone want to add anything?
14:25:23 <fantasai> Brent: Response made seems sufficient.
14:25:29 <fantasai> Ian: +1
14:25:32 <plh> +1
14:25:38 <fantasai> florian: In that case I think we're done. :)
14:25:46 <fantasai> \^_^/
14:26:13 <fantasai> Ian: Should we point at the guide draft?
14:26:17 <fantasai> plh: I sent a link yesterday
14:26:27 <fantasai> ... I can check with him since he's also in Madrid
14:26:42 <fantasai> fantasai: In that case, we're done with this cycle!
14:26:46 <fantasai> お疲れ様でした
14:26:49 <fantasai> Topic: Future Work
14:27:03 <fantasai> florian: Next meeting scheduled for August
14:27:12 <fantasai> plh: AB is meeting next week, so up to them
14:28:03 <fantasai> fantasai: Question is, what do we think should be for the Process 2026 cycle?
14:28:11 <fantasai> florian: 2 piles of things
14:28:18 <fantasai> ... One is simplification to REC track, particularly REC maintenance
14:28:26 <fantasai> ... We've received complaints over the years
14:28:33 <fantasai> ... Some ideas to make it simpler (though not radically simpler)
14:28:47 <fantasai> ... Other pile of things is related to TAG/AB chairing and discipline etc. and CEO discipline
14:28:57 <fantasai> ... There's a whole side-topic branch.
14:29:09 <fantasai> ... Assuming the new AB continues to care, should progress on this
14:29:16 <fantasai> ... but that assumes the new AB wants to continue
14:29:32 <fantasai> brent: Preliminary conversations I had was there was interest in simplifying the process
14:29:38 <fantasai> ... but I'm waiting to see what happens next week
14:29:56 <fantasai> florian: I'm also expecting since this is a very new AB, might be new large projects, but that'll take a little while to come to Process CG
14:30:04 <fantasai> ... so if there are non-controversial things to work on, we should move on them
14:30:17 <Ian> q +
14:30:18 <fantasai> ... simplifications is non-controversial goal, so we should give it a go
14:30:19 <Ian> q?
14:30:35 <fantasai> Ian: I haven't put thought into it, but love idea of simplifying the Process
14:30:54 <fantasai> ... When I look at Table of Contents, some things could live on their own.
14:31:18 <fantasai> ... E.g. definition of TAG and AB lengthen the Process doc, maybe could live elsewhere
14:31:30 <fantasai> ... For ppl who are chairs of WGs working the W3C Process, what are the things they need to know?
14:31:36 <fantasai> ... They don't need to know workshops and liaisons
14:31:42 <fantasai> ... Etc.
14:31:56 <fantasai> florian: I've tried to remove some of these for Process already, but so far we've only simplified, not removed
14:32:00 <fantasai> ... we can try to do more
14:32:04 <fantasai> ... TAG/AB, that's complex
14:32:39 <Ian> fantasai: Goal should not be "to shorten" (even if nice) but "that it be clear"
14:32:53 <Ian> ...if we could split into chapters that might make it easier to read
14:33:18 <fantasai> Brent: That'll also simplify updating it, can say we're just update one chapter
14:33:22 <fantasai> florian: Cross references...
14:33:27 <fantasai> ... but still, it'll help readability
14:33:33 <Ian>  (Ian notes it was originally in chapter form :)
14:33:41 <fantasai> ... The refactor we did several cycles ago should help, since the chapters are now much more self-contained
14:34:11 <fantasai> ... But that's also gated on tooling. Bikeshed doesn't maintain multipage documents well.
14:34:20 <fantasai> fantasai: Tab was supposed to work on that this year, I'll poke him about it.
14:34:34 <fantasai> florian: But the complexity is what we're trying to reduce. That's correlated with the length, but isn't the length as such.
14:34:48 <fantasai> ... E.g. we could reduce the length by deleting subsection headings and notes, but that's not an improvement
14:34:56 <fantasai> Ian: I like fantasai's suggestion that it be clear
14:35:09 <fantasai> ... two axes, one is language, other is focus
14:35:12 <fantasai> ... so yeah, let's chapter-ify
14:35:22 <fantasai> Brent: In the long run the Process could even be a collection of documents.
14:35:34 <fantasai> florian: It kindof is, since Patent Policy is a separate document, maybe Code of Conduct...
14:35:44 <plh> q+
14:35:44 <fantasai> ... it could be more, but I'm not in a rush to do this
14:35:55 <fantasai> brent: Let's see where next AB wants to go with it
14:36:07 <fantasai> plh: One thing, we have to keep in mind WGs chairs, still have to know a lot of things
14:36:17 <fantasai> ... so splitting it won't simplify work of WG chairs
14:36:33 <fantasai> fantasai: Yes, but it might make it less overwhelming and easier to focus on things
14:36:45 <fantasai> florian: But in any case we've had an issue "we should simplify process", not helpful because too vague
14:37:05 <plh> ack plh
14:37:18 <fantasai> ... but specific proposals that help make the Process more understandable or easier to operationalize or less distracting/less overwhemling, all of this is good
14:37:23 <fantasai> ... but specific proposals is what we need.
14:37:34 <Ian> Topic: Thanks!
14:37:41 <fantasai> Ian: I want to thank you all!
14:37:50 <fantasai> ... Though I'm a long-time Process guy, I'm somewhat new to this instantiation
14:37:58 <fantasai> ... I really appreciate the dedication of everyone and also the quality of work.
14:38:06 <fantasai> ... It's enough to make me want to come to the meetings!
14:38:17 <fantasai> ... I know how much work it takes, but everyone here has been really thoughtful and diligent and open to discussion.
14:38:36 <fantasai> ... Lots of voices out there, some less diplomatic than others, but you somehow managed to hear them all, and that's really great.
14:38:45 <fantasai> florian: One regret I have is the limited participation in this group.
14:39:04 <fantasai> ... Brent, if you end up chairing it, if you can increase the number of AB people and not-AB people who participate, that'd be great.
14:39:10 <fantasai> ... I'm otherwise largely satisfied with our work style.
14:39:46 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #w3process
14:40:25 <fantasai> Meeting closed.
14:40:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/23-w3process-minutes.html fantasai
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