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14:18:41 <AndyS> zakim, end meeting
14:18:41 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ktk, TallTed, Dominik_T, gtw, pfps, pchampin, doerthe, ora, AZ, niklasl, tl, AndyS, fsasaki, Souri, james, Enrico, william-vw, gkellogg
14:18:44 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:18:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/18-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
14:18:53 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, AndyS; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
14:18:53 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
14:18:58 <AndyS> rrsagent, please leave us
14:18:58 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
14:19:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
14:19:23 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/07/18-rdf-star-irc
14:19:39 <AndyS> zakim, this is SPARQL TF
14:19:42 <Zakim> got it, AndyS
14:20:03 <AndyS> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ffcebe59-f304-495a-bb7d-3a9c2c4dd5f7/20250718T143000/#agenda
14:20:04 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:20:04 <agendabot> agenda+ Scribe?
14:20:04 <agendabot> agenda+ Discussion: subqueries -- LATERAL-like and parameterization-like behaviours
14:20:04 <agendabot> agenda+ Topic for next time
14:20:29 <AndyS> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/07/17-rdf-star-irc
14:21:15 <AndyS> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/07/24-rdf-star-irc
14:21:28 <AndyS> present+
14:21:32 <AndyS> chair: AndyS
14:21:34 <AndyS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:21:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/18-rdf-star-minutes.html AndyS
14:21:45 <AndyS> rrsagent, make logs public
14:22:08 <AndyS> present: AndyS
14:22:15 <AndyS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:22:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/18-rdf-star-minutes.html AndyS
14:22:59 <AndyS> agenda?
14:23:40 <AndyS> meeting: RDF-Star WG SPARQL Task Force
14:23:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/18-rdf-star-minutes.html AndyS
14:26:40 <james> james has joined #rdf-star
14:26:48 <james> present+
14:28:52 <AndyS> present?
14:29:05 <AndyS> zakim, who is here?
14:29:05 <Zakim> Present: AndyS, james
14:29:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see james, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, gtw, gb, csarven, ktk, agendabot, pchampin, rhiaro, Tpt, m2gbot
14:29:50 <gtw> present+
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14:31:23 <Tpt> present+
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14:31:42 <AndyS> agenda?
14:31:52 <AndyS> zakim, open item 1
14:31:52 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Scribe? -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:32:02 <pfps> present+
14:33:04 <AndyS> scribe: AndyS
14:33:14 <AndyS> zakim, next item
14:33:14 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Discussion: subqueries -- LATERAL-like and parameterization-like behaviours -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:34:19 <TallTed> present+
14:34:27 <TallTed> Zakim, next item
14:34:27 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Topic for next time -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:34:43 <AndyS> AndyS: Added som tests to exists-filter for filter inside {},and OPTIONAL
14:34:56 <AndyS> s/som /some/
14:35:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:35:14 <AndyS> zakim, open item 2
14:35:14 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Discussion: subqueries -- LATERAL-like and parameterization-like behaviours -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:35:17 <TallTed> s/agendum 3 -- Topic for next time -- taken up [from agendabot]//
14:35:53 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/07/17-rdf-star-minutes.html
14:35:55 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/07/24-rdf-star-minutes.html
14:36:17 <AndyS> AndyS: Inside subqueries, a varibale can be "hidden" by projection
14:36:34 <AndyS> Example
14:36:36 <AndyS> SELECT ?v WHERE {
14:36:36 <AndyS>   BIND ( <ex:a> AS ?v )
14:36:36 <AndyS>   FILTER EXISTS { SELECT ?v WHERE { FILTER (?v = <ex:a>) } }
14:36:36 <AndyS> }
14:36:45 <TallTed> s/varibale/variable/
14:37:10 <AndyS> s/Example/Example 1/
14:37:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:37:21 <AndyS> Example 2
14:37:21 <AndyS> SELECT ?v WHERE {
14:37:21 <AndyS>   BIND ( <ex:a> AS ?v )
14:37:21 <AndyS>   FILTER EXISTS {
14:37:21 <AndyS>      SELECT ?Z WHERE {
14:37:21 <AndyS> 	BIND("abc" AS ?Z)
14:37:21 <AndyS>         FILTER (?v = <ex:a>)
14:37:21 <AndyS>   } }
14:37:21 <AndyS> }
14:37:46 <TallTed> s/agendum 2 -- Discussion: subqueries -- LATERAL-like and parameterization-like behaviours -- taken up [from agendabot]//
14:38:08 <TallTed> s/agendum 1 -- Scribe? -- taken up [from agendabot]//
14:38:08 <AndyS> s/ BIND/        BIND/
14:38:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:39:16 <james> q+
14:39:18 <Tpt> q+
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14:40:18 <TallTed> s/present?//
14:40:33 <AndyS> AndyS: parameterized-like vs LATERAL-like
14:40:43 <TallTed> ack james
14:40:45 <AndyS> james: pref like a parameterized query
14:41:07 <AndyS> ... because have seen this on our services
14:41:12 <pfps> is there any definition of parameterized queries?
14:41:23 <pfps> how about in SHACL?
14:41:27 <pfps> q+
14:41:30 <AndyS> james: No there isn't
14:42:15 <AndyS> ... one should tend have something as close as possible to parameterized queries
14:42:44 <pfps> q?
14:42:45 <AndyS> ack tpt
14:43:20 <AndyS> tpt: Maybe to 2 kinds and param query : SQL like is replace regardless
14:43:44 <AndyS> ... and scoped considered defn
14:43:46 <AndyS> q+
14:43:58 <pfps> q?
14:44:01 <AndyS> ack pfps
14:44:16 <AndyS> pfps: SHACL?
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14:45:42 <AndyS> AndyS: SHACL has a similar mechanism .. a bit weak , e.g. can get into bad queries.
14:46:16 <pfps> does SQL have a mechanism for hiding interior variables?
14:46:39 <AndyS> ... SAHCL 1.2 does not use SPARQL so widely
14:46:49 <AndyS> s/SAHCL/SHACL/
14:46:52 <AndyS> q?
14:46:56 <pfps> if not, then I don't see that experience from SQL is relevant
14:47:05 <gtw> ack AndyS
14:48:57 <AndyS> tpt: SQL -- Prepared queries
14:49:37 <AndyS> Tallted: no protection in ODBC/JDBC - but we(OpenLink) add defenses
14:49:38 <james> q+
14:49:48 <AndyS> ack james
14:50:22 <Tpt>  SELECT employee_number, name
14:50:22 <Tpt>    FROM employees emp
14:50:22 <Tpt>   WHERE salary > (
14:50:22 <Tpt>         SELECT AVG(salary)
14:50:23 <Tpt>           FROM employees
14:50:23 <Tpt>          WHERE department = emp.department);
14:50:24 <AndyS> james: Q to tpt -- dynamic scope  vs parameterized queries
14:50:32 <AndyS> tpt: this SQL
14:50:59 <AndyS> q+
14:51:27 <AndyS> james: what is the relation to parameters and whether they have scope of the query
14:51:50 <AndyS> tpt: do we substitute in the subquery IFF variables exposed.
14:52:05 <AndyS> s/tpt: do/tpt:/
14:52:45 <AndyS> tpt: Collerated behavior
14:53:11 <AndyS> s/correated/correlated/
14:53:31 <AndyS> tpt: capture inside if in the project
14:53:50 <TallTed> s/Collerated/Correlated/
14:54:12 <AndyS> james: there are case where the expecation is the opposite.
14:55:27 <AndyS> tpt: example SELECT ?x WHERE ... ?y ... and binding ?y
14:56:30 <AndyS> ... do we have to use the same mechanism parameterized and LATERAL - seem like two similiar but different
14:56:48 <AndyS> james: maybe having one is easier to explain
14:56:55 <AndyS> q?
14:57:46 <Tpt> scribe+
14:57:46 <Tpt> AndyS: Looking at SQL has a distraction: we are talking at mechanism that works on SPARQL variables but SQL has no variable
14:58:03 <Tpt> Andy: In Tpt's example it's correlation, we need to be careful taking from SQL
14:58:39 <Tpt> AndyS: If I remind correctly you have to replace all parameters in the parametrized query
14:58:46 <Tpt> q+
14:58:53 <Tpt> ack AndyS
14:58:57 <Tpt> scribe-
14:59:08 <TallTed> s/remind/remember/
14:59:39 <AndyS> tpt: Agree SQL is different because parameterization and correlation are separate concepts
14:59:52 <AndyS> ... SQL is an inspiration
15:00:36 <Tpt> scribe+
15:01:25 <Tpt> AndyS: The renaming is a separate step, we can use it only on LATERAL but not is parametrized query while sharing execution
15:01:34 <AndyS> q?
15:01:37 <AndyS> ack tpt
15:02:37 <TallTed> s/is parametrized/in parameterized/
15:02:58 <AndyS> gtw: No strong feeling - slightly in favor of composability i.e. correlated
15:03:15 <AndyS> ... which is a little further from SPARQL 1.1
15:05:29 <pfps> I prefer to have project hide here just like it does elsewhere
15:05:42 <AndyS> pfps: prefer that projection hides so hidden naming renaming is idempotent
15:06:45 <AndyS> FILTER EXISTS { SELECT ?v WHERE { FILTER (?v = <ex:a>) } }
15:07:21 <pfps> FILTER EXISTS { SELECT ?X WHERE { FILTER (?v = <ex:a> ) } }
15:07:44 <pfps> first affected, second not
15:08:02 <AndyS> pfps: latter case ?v is affected
15:08:20 <AndyS> s/ is affected/is not affected/
15:08:43 <AndyS> rrsagent, plsase draft minutes
15:08:43 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'plsase draft minutes', AndyS.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:08:47 <AndyS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:08:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/18-rdf-star-minutes.html AndyS
15:09:29 <AndyS> s/?vis/?v is/
15:11:31 <AndyS> tallted: SQL - different parameterization syntax for the parameterization position.
15:12:59 <AndyS> q?
15:14:05 <james> q+
15:14:42 <AndyS> ack james
15:15:31 <AndyS> james: in the back of my mind - there are cases where a variable in a filter regardless of position.
15:16:07 <AndyS> s/where having a variable/
15:16:31 <AndyS> s/position/position is intended to have an effect/
15:17:08 <james> ... where the variable is intended to be a request parameter.
15:18:21 <TallTed> relatively recent documentation (last updated circa 2016) --
15:18:21 <TallTed> 16.2.5. SPARQL Inline in SQL -> https://docs.openlinksw.com/virtuoso/rdfsparqlinline/
15:18:24 <AndyS> gtw: in AWS the open cypher style of different syntax for parameter points.
15:18:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:22:37 <AndyS> zakim, next item
15:22:37 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Topic for next time -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:23:23 <gtw> potential regrets for next week (some uncertainty).
15:23:32 <james> i would be here
15:23:54 <AndyS> zakim, end meeting
15:23:56 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AndyS, james, gtw, Tpt, pfps, TallTed
15:23:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:23:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/18-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
15:24:04 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, AndyS; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:24:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
15:24:12 <pfps> pfps has left #rdf-star
15:24:25 <AndyS> rrsagent, please leave
15:24:25 <RRSAgent> I see no action items