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13:58:19 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/07/17-pm-dc-irc
13:58:28 <shiestyle> zakim, start the meeting
13:58:28 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:58:30 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), shiestyle
13:58:43 <shiestyle> Meeting: Digital Comics TF
13:58:50 <shiestyle> Chair: Shinya Takami, Hadrien Gardeur
13:58:59 <shiestyle> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:59:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/17-pm-dc-minutes.html shiestyle
13:59:08 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #pm-dc
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13:59:25 <shiestyle> present+ Dale
13:59:27 <shiestyle> present+
13:59:32 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
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14:00:51 <toshiakikoike> present+
14:01:04 <CharlesL> present+
14:01:09 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #pm-dc
14:01:54 <gautierchomel> present+
14:01:57 <gautierchomel> scribe+
14:02:16 <shiestyle> Topic: the issue opened for structural semantics
14:02:20 <shiestyle> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2759
14:06:32 <shiestyle> q+
14:08:12 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: In the case of publication containing more than one episode. That could be volumes or seasons. Usually one epub is one episode, but in some case there is interest to package more han one episode at a time. It makes sense to have a vocabulary to descirbe this. It's a way to allow RS to provide affordances and crafted reading experiences. Globally, it is about providing semantics instead of layout rendering controls. With the semantics,
14:08:12 <gautierchomel>  the RS can provide control to the user.
14:08:19 <CharlesL> q+
14:09:15 <Hadrien> q+
14:09:37 <Dale> q+
14:09:39 <shiestyle> ack shiestyle
14:09:46 <shiestyle> ack CharlesL
14:09:50 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: I understand the situation and usecase, but i think it is difficult to do on the author side. I think metadata is another option to provide power to the user.
14:11:33 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:11:36 <gautierchomel> CharlesL: I'm concerned about using `epub-type`, I would prefer DPUB-Aria, and we have fast track to get things in DPUB-Aria now. I also agree there is an important piece of metadata to add to say how many episodes.
14:12:33 <shiestyle> +1 to Charles to use DPUB-Aria than epub-type
14:14:13 <shiestyle> ack Dale
14:14:16 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: I agree I would prefere DPUB-Aria if we have ways to push things there, because they are not actually sufficient. epub-typ seems quicker to get.
14:14:16 <gautierchomel> Metadata is complementary, I think. It allows to say how many chapter, it does not indicates where the chapter start.
14:14:50 <gautierchomel> s/Metadata/...metadata
14:15:43 <Hadrien> q+
14:15:59 <gautierchomel> Dale: I'm always in favor of semantics.
14:16:12 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:17:13 <shiestyle> q+
14:18:12 <shiestyle> ack shiestyle
14:20:44 <Dale> q+
14:21:29 <shiestyle> ack Dale
14:21:34 <CharlesL> +1 to both metadata and semantics
14:21:46 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: maybe episode and issue is the same, do we really need three words? It may be too much information for a RS and not much value for the user. To me the metadata outisde of the epub is more important.
14:22:29 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: it's no cost to have variety, and it can be used to push specific information to different user agents, like screen readers per example.
14:23:06 <Hadrien> q+
14:23:13 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:24:14 <shiestyle> q+
14:24:15 <gautierchomel> Dale: from a practical point of view, I'll be interested to see how RS handle differently each. I see a top level TOC but that could probably be different.
14:24:45 <shiestyle> ack shiestyle
14:25:13 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: It could be separated TOC, it will affect the progression, I have several use cases.
14:25:28 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: this vocabulary is toi be added to the nav doc, not to the content.
14:25:51 <CharlesL> q+
14:25:59 <shiestyle> ack CharlesL
14:26:30 <gautierchomel> s/toi/to/
14:27:42 <shiestyle> q?
14:27:51 <gautierchomel> CharlesL: I see the use case of a screen reader hotkey to shift to the next episode.
14:27:58 <shiestyle> Topic: Images in spine
14:32:51 <shiestyle> q+
14:32:54 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: manga production today is mostly made of images wrapped in HTML because the spec imposes HTML as spine elements.
14:32:54 <gautierchomel> The reality is that the HTML wrapper is ignored as soon as possible by distributors or RS.
14:32:54 <gautierchomel> That's a problem for accesisbility. We still can provide images in spine with HTML fallback or provide HTML in spine with images as fallback.
14:32:55 <gautierchomel> But we need guidance.
14:33:42 <CharlesL> q+
14:33:52 <CharlesL> ack shiestyle
14:34:34 <Hadrien> ack CharlesL
14:34:35 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: anyway we have to prepare HTML for accessibility.
14:34:50 <Hadrien> q+
14:36:26 <Dale> q+
14:36:37 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:36:41 <gautierchomel> CharlesL: SVG image are possibly accessible without HTML. That's one way to do it also. I've seen fixed layout ebooks with SVG and CSS. That's an option to allow because it exist.
14:37:05 <shiestyle> q+
14:39:15 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: being pragmatic, SVG is not used for comics to my knowledge. Most RS have a specific mode for comics, they just display images and badly support SVG. In the comic world everything is bitmap.
14:40:09 <shiestyle> ack Dale
14:40:52 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: I see comic accessibility with something like SMILE, ways to syncronise images with text and audio. The current HTML practive is a big alt text replacement, lacking of granularity.
14:40:55 <Hadrien> q+
14:42:14 <shiestyle> ack me
14:43:15 <CharlesL> q+
14:43:54 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: I agree we have to separate comics and manga from fixed layout. It is different. Today, making comics fully accessible is very costly.
14:43:57 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:44:19 <gautierchomel> Dale: it's the same discussion about publisher intent in a way. We need good best practice.
14:47:05 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: for comics, EPUB is a distribution container, but it not used by the RS. The RS in comic mode keeps images, metadata and TOC. It's about easing the way for them, so they use the standard instead of homegrown recipes.
14:48:58 <shiestyle> ack CharlesL
14:52:31 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: Allowing images in spine is what the comic industry wants but it needs a spec change and has the risk of breaking in RS. Also, it is hard to scope it only to comics.
14:52:54 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: using HTML as fallback is not supported by Apple.
14:54:11 <shiestyle> q+
14:54:15 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: pragmaticaly, continue using HTML and provide images as fallback is probably the easier to implement and less risky. It still mean to produce useless HTML, but probably this one is autogenerated and don't come with extra costs.
14:56:16 <CharlesL> q+
14:56:22 <CharlesL> ack shiestyle
14:56:31 <shiestyle> ack CharlesL
14:59:26 <Dale> q+
14:59:57 <shiestyle> ack Dale
14:59:57 <gautierchomel> CharlesL: also allowing images in spine might be a problem with our charter.
15:01:10 <gautierchomel> Dale: the beautifull thing with standards is that tere are so many of them.
15:02:08 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #pm-dc
15:03:00 <shiestyle> Hadrien: We will skip TF calls in August and focus on preparing PR for scrolled comics. See you in September!
15:04:09 <shiestyle> zakim, end the meeting
15:04:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Dale, shiestyle, MasakazuKitahara, toshiakikoike, CharlesL, gautierchomel
15:04:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:04:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/17-pm-dc-minutes.html Zakim
15:04:18 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, shiestyle; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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