13:55:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
13:55:23 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/07/11-rdf-star-irc
13:55:23 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-star
13:55:31 <TallTed> meeting: SPARQL Task Force of RDF & SPARQL WG
13:55:47 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/c4bcdfe1-cd32-4d07-ab07-609ca3eee120/20250711T070000/
13:55:48 <agendabot> TallTed, sorry, I did not recognize any agenda in https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/c4bcdfe1-cd32-4d07-ab07-609ca3eee120/20250711T070000/
13:57:03 <TallTed> s/agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/c4bcdfe1-cd32-4d07-ab07-609ca3eee120/20250711T070000/ //
13:57:05 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ffcebe59-f304-495a-bb7d-3a9c2c4dd5f7/20250711T143000/
13:57:05 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:57:05 <agendabot> agenda+ Scribe?
13:57:05 <agendabot> agenda+ Discussion: Deep vs Shallow injection
13:57:05 <agendabot> agenda+ Strawpoll on Deep vs Shallow injection
13:57:05 <agendabot> agenda+ Topic for next time
13:58:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/11-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
13:58:35 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-rdf-star-minutes.html
13:58:36 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/07/17-rdf-star-minutes.html
13:59:09 <TallTed> chair: AndyS
14:01:54 <TallTed> s|www.w3.org/events/meetings/c4bcdfe1-cd32-4d07-ab07-609ca3eee120/20250711T070000/| |
14:02:07 <TallTed> s|www.w3.org/events/meetings/c4bcdfe1-cd32-4d07-ab07-609ca3eee120/20250711T070000/| |
14:02:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/11-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:03:04 <TallTed> s|www.w3.org/events/meetings/c4bcdfe1-cd32-4d07-ab07-609ca3eee120/20250711T070000| |
14:03:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/11-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:03:52 <TallTed> s|/ /// /| |
14:04:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/11-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:05:42 <james> james has joined #rdf-star
14:21:21 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
14:22:47 <AndyS> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ffcebe59-f304-495a-bb7d-3a9c2c4dd5f7/20250711T143000/#agenda
14:22:47 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:22:47 <agendabot> agenda+ Scribe?
14:22:47 <agendabot> agenda+ Discussion: Deep vs Shallow injection
14:22:47 <agendabot> agenda+ Strawpoll on Deep vs Shallow injection
14:22:47 <agendabot> agenda+ Topic for next time
14:23:34 <AndyS> regrets: Olaf
14:23:40 <AndyS> regrets: Ruben
14:23:44 <AndyS> present+
14:24:10 <TallTed> regrets+ Olaf
14:24:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/11-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:26:49 <james> present+
14:29:04 <TallTed> present+
14:30:59 <Tpt> present+
14:31:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/11-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:32:19 <gtw> present+
14:32:24 <AndyS> zakim, open item 1
14:32:24 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Scribe? -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:33:14 <Tpt> scribe+
14:33:24 <AndyS> zakim, next item
14:33:24 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Discussion: Deep vs Shallow injection -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:34:05 <Tpt> AndyS: Goal: figure out where we are between deep vs shallow EXIST and do a poll
14:35:25 <Tpt> AndyS: [Explanation on deep vs shallow]
14:38:46 <TallTed> q+
14:39:03 <AndyS> ack TallTed
14:39:30 <Tpt> TallTed: Is there any sense of what each of these option delivers or fails of delivers? What can we do with one but not with the other?
14:40:52 <Tpt> AndyS: Deep is closer to the spec (the spec says "replace all the current occurences"). Shallow is closer to MINUS (for anything nested it has similar effect: evaluate then combine)
14:41:08 <james> q+
14:41:40 <Tpt> TallTed: We should get more input
14:42:18 <Tpt> AndyS: I would prefer is make a decision on it, maybe classify it as "feature as risk".
14:42:35 <Tpt> AndyS: I don't think we might get more input
14:42:51 <AndyS> ack james
14:43:27 <TallTed> s/fails of delivers/fails to deliver/
14:43:41 <Tpt> james: I try to caracterized the queries where it makes a difference
14:44:30 <gtw> q+ to mention something about using wikidata query logs in assessing
14:45:50 <AndyS> SELECT * { ?s ?p ?o FILTER EXISTS { FILTER(?o = 10) } }
14:46:03 <TallTed> s/try to caracterized/tried to characterize/
14:46:06 <AndyS> SELECT * { ?s ?p ?o FILTER EXISTS { {} UNION { FILTER(?o = 10) } } }
14:47:29 <AndyS> ack gtw
14:47:29 <Zakim> gtw, you wanted to mention something about using wikidata query logs in assessing
14:47:38 <Tpt> AndyS: The difference is mostly on nested FILTER
14:48:17 <james> q+
14:48:37 <AndyS> ack james
14:48:38 <Tpt> gtw: What I think it is instructive to have a look at Wikidata, Blazegraph has some bugs around EXIST. I would be careful to using those logs to guide our decision making
14:49:04 <Tpt> james: My goal is less what Blazegraph is producing but more what people try to express
14:49:55 <Tpt> james: My main concern is complexity: there are more complexity than in my customer queries
14:50:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/11-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:50:29 <Tpt> james: Currently we do dynamic bindings (effectively deep bindings)
14:51:01 <Tpt> AndyS: Jena does nearly the same. I hope that the draft of the value insertion PR is effectively that.
14:51:13 <Tpt> AndyS: ...in the same way as the dynamic environment
14:51:20 <AndyS> q?
14:51:28 <Tpt> james: it's implicit in our implementation
14:51:32 <Tpt> AndyS: Just like Jena
14:54:06 <Tpt> gtw: I don't think customers are aware of the semantic differences, any option would not violate there expectations
14:54:25 <Tpt> AndyS: The more difficult question: did they consider MINUS vs EXIST?
14:55:21 <AndyS> https://github.com/afs/SPARQL-exists/tree/main/tests/exists-filter
14:55:44 <AndyS> https://github.com/afs/SPARQL-exists/blob/main/tests/exists-filter/exists-filter-02.rq
14:56:37 <AndyS> scribe+
14:57:12 <AndyS> tpt: look at the options that change the least - which is also not adding features
14:57:22 <james> q+
14:58:13 <AndyS> ... forward compatibility e.g. LATERAL build on the mechanism we choose for EXISTS
14:58:29 <AndyS> ... avoid "similar but different"
14:58:35 <AndyS> scribe-
14:58:39 <AndyS> ack james
14:59:30 <Tpt> q+ to agree with james
14:59:39 <AndyS> scribe+
15:00:22 <AndyS> james: Our customer use parameterized queries which this is related to. Deep binding is closer to parameterization.
15:00:49 <AndyS> ack tpt
15:00:49 <Zakim> Tpt, you wanted to agree with james
15:00:59 <AndyS> tpt: I support james on this.
15:01:47 <james> q+
15:01:52 <AndyS> ... LATERAL, parameterization, closer to spec (which substitutes in the whole pattern [scribe])
15:01:56 <AndyS> ack james
15:02:15 <Tpt> james: It is very unfortunate that Peter is not here
15:02:19 <TallTed> how we have handled parameterizing SPARQL in Virtuoso (starting in the third body paragraph) -- https://docs.openlinksw.com/virtuoso/rdfsparqlinline/
15:03:01 <Tpt> AndyS: I contacted Olaf, he is neutral on the decision, he cares about having a formally correct text in the spec
15:03:11 <Tpt> AndyS: I asked Ruben too, he said he is neutral as well
15:03:22 <Tpt> james: So, the only open question is Peter
15:03:31 <Tpt> q+
15:03:39 <AndyS> ack tpt
15:04:21 <Tpt> tpt: we can maybe do a poll now to get an idea of the direction, taking into account that Peter position is missing
15:04:22 <AndyS> tpt: can we do a strawpoll to see for those present?
15:05:28 <james> q+
15:05:36 <AndyS> ack james
15:06:30 <AndyS> DRAFT - -strawpoll: Which mechanism (deep vs shallow) do you prefer at the moment? (vote D or S)
15:06:44 <james> D
15:07:14 <AndyS> s/DRAFT --//
15:07:17 <AndyS> D
15:07:18 <gtw> D
15:07:26 <TallTed> neutral (because I don't have a strong enough sense of which delivers more than the other)
15:07:30 <Tpt> D
15:07:42 <AndyS> Olaf :: neutral
15:07:53 <AndyS> Ruben :: neutral
15:08:20 <AndyS> (these two people had said they were not able to attend and gave a "postal vote")
15:09:49 <AndyS> s/gave a/submitted a/
15:11:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/11-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:12:01 <Tpt> AndyS: I will check to come up with tests that present the point but don't involve subqueries
15:12:27 <Tpt> s/DRAFT - -//
15:13:33 <AndyS> zakim, next item
15:13:33 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Strawpoll on Deep vs Shallow injection -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:13:35 <Tpt> AndyS: I will try to figure out what Peter's position is
15:13:58 <AndyS> zakim, next item
15:13:58 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, AndyS
15:14:09 <AndyS> zakim, close item 3
15:14:09 <Zakim> agendum 3, Strawpoll on Deep vs Shallow injection, closed
15:14:10 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:14:10 <Zakim> 4. Topic for next time [from agendabot]
15:14:36 <james> no holidays here
15:14:55 <Tpt> Likely regrets for the first 2 weeks of August
15:15:44 <james> q+
15:16:19 <AndyS> ack james
15:21:18 <AndyS> LHS BIND ( 123 AS ?X)
15:21:39 <AndyS> LHS BIND ( (123+?Y)  AS ?X)
15:24:02 <AndyS> scribe+
15:24:29 <AndyS> AndyS: next time - consider variable scope and sub-SELECT
15:24:39 <AndyS> scribe-
15:24:48 <james> q+
15:26:33 <Tpt> james: My concern from Wikidata query log, there are half of the cases where EXIST expression have more than a 4 complexity
15:26:52 <Tpt> james: I will look for things with 5-6 operators as examples
15:27:16 <Tpt> james: I have no idea if they are machine or human generated or not
15:27:33 <AndyS> ack james
15:30:30 <TallTed> s/these two people/Olaf and Ruben/
15:30:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/11-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:30:57 <AndyS> zakim, end meeting
15:30:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AndyS, james, TallTed, Tpt, gtw
15:30:59 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:31:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/11-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
15:31:05 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, AndyS; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:31:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
15:31:10 <AndyS> rrsagent, please leave us
15:31:10 <RRSAgent> I see no action items