12:04:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pmwg
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12:04:09 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:04:10 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:04:23 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2025-07-10: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Jul/0007.html
12:04:24 <ivan> Chair: wendy
12:04:24 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:04:24 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Jul/0007.html
12:04:25 <ivan> regrets+ Susan
12:49:07 <DaleRogers> DaleRogers has joined #pmwg
12:49:42 <DaleRogers> present +
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12:59:41 <toshiakikoike> present+
12:59:46 <wendyreid> present+
13:01:01 <ivan> present+
13:01:12 <ivan> present+ AvneeshSingh
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13:03:08 <LaurentLM> LaurentLM has joined #pmwg
13:03:14 <ivan> present+ duga
13:03:15 <LaurentLM> present+
13:03:24 <ivan> present+ HadrienGardeur
13:03:47 <ivan> present+ eloisa
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13:03:59 <ivan> present+ charlesL
13:04:08 <LaurentLM> scribe+
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13:04:51 <LaurentLM> wendy: let's start with open issues
13:04:59 <wendyreid> Topic: Relationship to Accessibility Specs - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2720
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13:06:37 <LaurentLM> wendy: the desire is to make clear relationship with WCAG/ARIA/EPUB-A11Y.
13:06:44 <ivan> present+ elguerrero
13:06:58 <AvneeshSingh> present+
13:07:13 <LaurentLM> rrsagent, set log public
13:07:15 <DaleRogers> q+
13:07:20 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
13:09:03 <ivan> q+
13:09:08 <LaurentLM> DaleRogers : what is our lane, how do we stay in our lane? when we write the spec, we have different audiences, how do we care of them?
13:09:12 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:09:23 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:10:24 <LaurentLM> ivan : the spec is a tech document, the target is tech people producing ebooks, tools and reading systems. We probably should have a different document on how to create epubs.
13:11:54 <LaurentLM> ... what Matt is seing is that the section refers to stds that are directly relevant for EPUB, not those which are indirectly referenced, like SVG (which depends on HTML). EPUB depends on the sister stds, like the accessibiltiy docs.
13:12:16 <LaurentLM> ... listing all others is going to far.
13:12:20 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
13:12:24 <CharlesL> q+
13:13:35 <LaurentLM> AvneeshSingh : epub a11y, wcag put constraints on EPUB. HTML SVG are building blocks. DPUB ARIA is a dependency, the other are not adding to the standard.
13:13:38 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:14:55 <LaurentLM> CharlesL : I see the point. Something is missing. To make an accessible EPUB you need these things. EPUB has a relationship with DPUB ARIA. I would be in favor of adding it to the A11Y spec.
13:16:30 <LaurentLM> wendyreid : I think we didn't do that before because it was a draft. We can reference it now. There is a one-sentence in the spec; maybe we should add to it.
13:16:53 <ivan> q+
13:16:57 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:17:01 <LaurentLM> ... our audience is mixed. We made the spec readable. We should listen to feedback.
13:18:57 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:19:02 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
13:19:02 <LaurentLM> ivan : EPUB could reference the a11y spec and the reading system spec; and the a11y spec can reference DPUB ARIA. For me it is a different level.
13:19:47 <LaurentLM> AvneeshSingh : DPUB ARIA is designed to provide semantic info to EPUB, it is a building block.
13:20:05 <LaurentLM> ... ARIA is going beyond a11y.
13:20:12 <ivan> q+
13:20:18 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:21:24 <LaurentLM> ivan: why no rdf-a in this case? it is used in html.
13:22:12 <LaurentLM> wendyreid : RS process DPUB ARIA. It is impactful for content creators, more than rdf-a.
13:22:51 <LaurentLM> ... next topic
13:22:55 <wendyreid> Topic: Footnotes in EPUB3 - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2690
13:24:30 <gpellegrino> epubtests.org :)
13:25:02 <LaurentLM> wendyreid : there is a need for a note about how to create good footnotes. The DAISY KB is a source. It would be good to have a test file and check RS. So that content creators get feedback.
13:25:07 <ivan> q+
13:25:10 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:26:08 <LaurentLM> ivan : we can use the existing test environment, initially created for spec CR. Some of these tests would be linked to a best practice document.
13:26:21 <CharlesL> q+
13:26:28 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:26:29 <gpellegrino> sorry right link: https://epubtest.org/
13:27:05 <LaurentLM> CharlesL the a11y tf discusses extended descriptions, with test. It could be moved to such environment.
13:27:59 <LaurentLM> ... originally the epub:type was a trigger for popup footnotes. Now doc-footnote is the trigger. We should tease it in a test suite.
13:28:32 <LaurentLM> wendyreid the best practice may be to recommand both.
13:28:34 <ivan> q+
13:28:37 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:29:08 <LaurentLM> ivan as staff, the question is if the WG is ok to start such a work item, with a WG document.
13:29:13 <LaurentLM> q+
13:29:17 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:29:22 <wendyreid> scribe+
13:29:37 <DaleRogers> q+
13:29:46 <wendyreid> LaurentLM: We have the DAISY knowledge base, which is already the bet practice, should we duplicate it?
13:29:47 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:29:59 <wendyreid> ... should we discuss with DAISY if we can use it as a source of truth?
13:30:04 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
13:30:28 <LaurentLM> DaleRogers I can help Suzan on such a best practice document.
13:30:51 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
13:31:58 <CharlesL> q+
13:31:59 <ivan> q+
13:32:03 <LaurentLM> AvneeshSingh : to elaborate on Laurent's comment. At Daisy we are working on extended descriptions. We'll update the KB.
13:32:04 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:32:41 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:32:48 <LaurentLM> CharlesL : We would add to the test page, not create a full best practice document.
13:33:29 <LaurentLM> ivan : we should not duplicate the effort with the Daisy KB. We can have a meeting to discuss where Suzan can help.
13:34:01 <LaurentLM> wendyreid : we can write the test.
13:34:23 <CharlesL> q+
13:34:26 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:34:27 <LaurentLM> ivan : we should try to make use of both groups.
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13:35:00 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:35:03 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
13:35:08 <Hadrien> present+
13:36:05 <LaurentLM> AvneeshSingh: regarding the Daisy KB, it is huge, on a11y and beyond. In Daisy tools in case of error there are links to the KB. It is part of a Web of tools.
13:37:43 <CharlesL> q+
13:37:44 <LaurentLM> wendyreid: the missing piece for EPUB creators is "it is working hre and here".
13:37:47 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:38:06 <LaurentLM> CharlesL: the KB could reference these W3C tests.
13:38:25 <LaurentLM> ... the Daisy KB is maintained by Matt.
13:38:33 <LaurentLM> wendyreid: next topic
13:38:46 <wendyreid> Topic: Signify that an EPUB uses HTML - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2761
13:40:09 <gpellegrino> q+
13:40:13 <LaurentLM> wendyreid: about adoption on HTML there were already suggestions. Major version EPUB4, change the extension, check the OPF ...
13:40:45 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:41:48 <duga> q+
13:41:56 <LaurentLM> gpellegrino: I'm in favor of a different version number in the OPF. It is the only way for RS to announce something to the end user. If not,  the RS will not announce anything before breaking.
13:41:57 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:42:27 <CharlesL> q+
13:43:30 <LaurentLM> duga: I hear about old RS, what they do or not. But how big is their market share? Who are they? What would they do in these scenarios (media-types are usually wrong)?
13:43:53 <LaurentLM> ... before we decide, we have to understand. A list of RS, and some way to test.
13:43:57 <DaleRogers> q+
13:44:04 <wendyreid> q+
13:44:18 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:45:02 <LaurentLM> CharlesL: perfect example where we can create test files with different options and check RSs.
13:45:13 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
13:46:45 <CharlesL> q+
13:46:58 <LaurentLM> DaleRogers:  as a web designer and teacher, I said to may students open a tag, close a tag. RS are smart enough to forgive unclosed tags. Most browsers are smart enough to ajust. I'm wondering if EPUB RS can be smart enough.
13:47:08 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:47:46 <wendyreid> https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4523848#post4523848
13:47:49 <LaurentLM> wendyreid: I'm also curious about RS reactions on HTML.
13:47:53 <Hadrien> q+
13:48:21 <LaurentLM> ... Suzan opened a thread on Mobileread.
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13:48:43 <CharlesL1> q?
13:49:34 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL1
13:49:38 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:49:47 <LaurentLM> ... if we use the EPUB version in the OPF, EPUB creator will use a static EPUB 3.4 even if they don't use HTML.
13:49:56 <duga> q+
13:50:01 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:50:33 <ivan> q+
13:50:54 <LaurentLM> Hadrien: a different media-type is a solution, the EPUB version in the OPF is not properly processed by RS.
13:52:04 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:52:13 <LaurentLM> ... with all the things we are discussing, a version number may be needed, but usually we register a media-type and extension.
13:52:49 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:52:56 <LaurentLM> duga: non well-formed documents are not possible in XML.
13:53:36 <LaurentLM> ivan: HTML is know to be less strict.
13:55:51 <LaurentLM> ... I'm worried that we are running ahead. I hope we'll see answers in the survey. Will today's RS are easily transformable into HTML-processors?  If none of the big RS around (Readium, Apple, Kobo, Amazon ...) all way we won't do that until we are forced, and publishers say we won't do that because RS don't process that, then we'll be stuck.
13:56:01 <LaurentLM> q+
13:56:38 <wendyreid> LaurentLM: We need to talk about distributors too
13:56:41 <wendyreid> ... they can block this if they say no
13:56:46 <Hadrien> q+
13:56:51 <wendyreid> ... if its not distributed, you won't find people to make it
13:57:16 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:57:18 <DaleRogers> q+
13:57:44 <wendyreid> LaurentLM: Some distributors are retailers, but many are intermediaries between publishers and retailers
13:58:15 <duga> q+
13:58:15 <wendyreid> ... some transform EPUB, like Amazon, but others don't, or only make partial changes, they use other checking tools like EPUBCheck or others
13:58:21 <gpellegrino> q+
13:58:24 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:00:05 <LaurentLM> Hadrien: distributors mostly rely on EPUBCheck and ACE. They don't check content too much, but they process publications to generate samples, watermark content, inject marketing material ... Most processes rely on XML.
14:00:26 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
14:00:27 <duga> q-
14:02:54 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL1
14:03:00 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
14:03:06 <LaurentLM> DaleRogers: if we create a version of the spec that distributors and RS do not handle, are we advancing the medium.?
14:03:41 <LaurentLM> gpellegrino: Apple has its own validator. Do the chair have pan to reach such big players?
14:03:51 <LaurentLM> s/pan/plans
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14:04:25 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:04:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
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15:04:39 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
15:04:39 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
15:04:47 <ivan> zakim, bye
15:04:47 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been toshiakikoike, wendyreid, ivan, AvneeshSingh, MasakazuKitahara, CharlesL, DaleRogers, duga, LaurentLM, HadrienGardeur, eloisa,
15:04:47 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pmwg
15:04:47 <Zakim> ... gpellegrino, elguerrero, Hadrien