13:02:05 RRSAgent has joined #pm-ann 13:02:09 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-pm-ann-irc 13:02:09 RRSAgent, make logs Public 13:02:10 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan 13:02:24 Chair: laurentlm 13:02:24 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Annotation Task Force Telco 13:02:24 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/mid/C86EAEDF-A3EE-41BE-BFF4-753352031960@edrlab.org 13:03:08 LaurentLM has joined #pm-ann 14:04:57 delackner has joined #pm-ann 14:05:01 duga has joined #pm-ann 14:05:11 LaurentLM has joined #pm-ann 14:05:21 Hadrien has joined #pm-ann 14:06:33 Dale has joined #pm-ann 14:08:02 present+ 14:08:22 present+ 14:08:28 present+ duga 14:08:33 present+ 14:08:35 present+ Dale 14:08:50 present+ Hadrien 14:13:07 scribe+ 14:14:57 LaurentLM: We have a first draft of use cases 14:15:22 ... It will stay as a note, but will be the basis of our requirements 14:15:50 ... So it is important that everything that is a real use case be here. Maybe not everything we can imagine, but everything that people really need 14:16:06 Use cases: https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/wg-notes/annotations-ucr/ 14:16:56 q+ 14:17:29 duga: it could also be surviving editions. 14:17:34 +1 and this could even be across formats 14:17:59 q+ 14:18:09 LaurentLM: I feel it is the same use case. Basically something has changed 14:18:39 ... other than the start and end and pagination, what else has changed? 14:18:53 ... Anything else 14:19:14 Hadrien:Usually just the front/back matter, most everything else stays the same 14:22:44 duga: but there could be some text differences 14:22:44 LaurentLM: Yes, this is why we need to work on selectors, so changes to text will need to survive 14:22:44 q? 14:22:44 ack duga 14:22:44 delackner: Will this not use CFI? 14:22:44 LaurentLM: In w3c annotations you can use a lot of selectors, including CFI 14:22:44 ... But CFI can be over precise 14:22:44 q+ 14:22:44 ack delackner 14:22:44 q+ 14:22:44 delackner: Footnotes are kind of sad, and there is no formal support for styled footnotes. We treat them as plain text 14:22:44 LaurentLM: Footnotes are different beasts 14:22:44 q+ 14:22:44 q- 14:23:11 duga: CFIs is precise but has ability to adjust to content, via text added before after, + ids. You can correct a broken CFI. 14:24:03 q+ 14:24:08 ... about footnotes, you can have styled footnotes but implementations don't use styles. This feels like we have a way to style, but nobody uses it because it is a lot easier. 14:24:14 ack duga 14:24:15 ack duga 14:24:35 Hadrien: On the footnote side, it seems like an implementation issue 14:25:16 ... In thorium mobile we won't do what Apple does, we will open a new webview with the documet that contains the footnote and scroll to its location 14:25:20 ack Hadrien 14:26:09 Dale: Looking at this from the edu direction, I imagine some profs who were tech savvy, some not 14:26:21 ... So I ask how would this work in that world? 14:26:50 q+ 14:26:54 ... We take something written student to teacher and vice versa, and we want that to be in the digital world 14:27:31 ... When I think about an epub that has archival issues, I am thinking about how people will add this to the archive 14:28:14 ... And some email systems strip large files, so I am wondering - are we talking about a separate document for the annotation? 14:28:43 q+ 14:28:46 ... Is the annotation a separate document that links to an epub? So we don't have the overhead of the epub 14:28:53 ack Dale 14:29:10 ... Are we considering all the possibilities? 14:30:26 ack Dale 14:30:26 LaurentLM: Yes, we are. We are considering detached files, and we are considering annotations in the epub. So both. 14:30:26 ivan: If I look at edu case, it is based on the teacher student interaction by import/export 14:30:26 ... which is fine, but I would expect people expect a real time sync of annotations 14:31:58 ... e.g. like Google Docs 14:31:58 ... So the teacher annotates, and it just shows up in the students book 14:31:58 LaurentLM: I didn't want to mix this with the teacher use case 14:31:58 q+ 14:31:58 ... But this is why I added the option of syncing in the cloud 14:31:58 q- later 14:32:21 aq? 14:32:26 q? 14:33:01 delackner: When we look at real school deployments of shared reading systems, the success seems to be the areas that are low complexity 14:33:42 ... Is there a solution that is simple enough that we don't require isolated silos? 14:34:33 ... We need something that is simple enough to allow inerop 14:36:39 LaurentLM: We should create something to interact with a server 14:36:39 q+ 14:36:39 ... so we can crush the silos 14:36:39 ack delackner 14:36:39 acj delackner 14:36:39 ivan: Looking back at w3c webannotations forum, I extracted some comments 14:36:56 ... Once annotations are extracted beyond the epub, they exist as their own thing. How do we reference those annotations? Is there a UID? What about copyright? etc 14:37:25 .. the current annotation standard doesn't touch on this, but we may want to at least document all these issues 14:37:52 LaurentLM: we can create use cases around that, but I wonder if we should at this time. As you say, it is cimplex 14:38:09 ivan: It is fine to have it in the use cases, and then decide not to solve it 14:38:26 q? 14:38:38 LaurentLM: So we will add these use cases from the 10 year old workshop? 14:39:15 ivan: Yes, but it is ok. One interesting thing that came up was annotations on religious literature, that itself become religious literature 14:39:37 ack ivan 14:40:06 Dale: X api may have some of this functionality 14:40:33 ... it is working with a server, there is a language you can use to specify what you want to store or retrieve 14:41:03 ... but in terms of having a server, a single point where you can store info 14:41:29 ... X api already exists. Can that be used in a special case like annotations 14:42:01 LaurentLM: Could you review the x api spec and see if X api can process JSON and save/fetch and store where it is searchable 14:42:07 Dale: let me find out 14:42:44 LaurentLM: we talked about styled footnotes, but we have no use case for styled annotations 14:42:57 ... there will be some needed 14:43:09 ... and we need to see if e.g. Ruby is needed 14:43:37 ... I will take the minutes and try to add new use cases 14:43:58 ... next topic is an overview of the W3C annotation spec 14:44:06 Link to the W3C Annotation spec: https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/ 14:44:25 ... it is not simple, so I will just give an iverview 14:44:46 ... [reviewing annotation sample in slide] 14:46:32 ... [reviewing all the items that can go in a header] 14:47:01 ... target is flexible - it can be a URL or a local structure 14:47:53 ... target can be a source and selector 14:48:05 ... this is most interesting to us 14:48:29 ... target is very flexible, as is body 14:48:45 ... body can just be embedded 14:49:39 ... plain text is easy, as is styled text in markup/down 14:50:04 ... real complexity is the target, and especially the selector 14:50:14 https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/#fragment-selector 14:50:22 ... [discussing list of selectors] 14:50:44 ... One is epub cfi selector (a left and right part) 14:51:33 ... there is redundancy, as the target is specified in the json and in the cfi 14:52:09 q+ 14:52:12 ... there are a lot of selectors. we need to decide on a subset if we don't want it to be overwhelming 14:52:23 ... In this spec, there is the notion of collection 14:52:24 q+ 14:52:46 ... you can't add, delete, etc. You can just fetch a set of annotations 14:53:58 ... we don't really have time to discuss this spec today, but for next time please review the existing w3c annotations spec and decide what you like, what you don't, and what is missing 14:54:28 ... e.g. the annotation does not have a good way to point at an epub 14:54:41 ... should we have calls over the summer? 14:55:38 ... I am missing for the next two weeks, but do we want to meet in August? Or skip to September 14:55:58 ivan: Two things on the presentation 14:56:05 ... selectors can be combined 14:56:36 https://www.w3.org/TR/selectors-states/ 14:56:43 ... So a text before/after selector can be combined with a more targeted selector to limit scope (e.g. id) 14:57:11 ... we also had a note specifically about selectors which makes it a little more readable than the core spec 14:57:23 ... it might be easier to understand than the spec 14:57:52 Dale: Of the different selector models, are any just based on the DOM? 14:57:59 ivan: many if not most 14:59:41 Dale: We can just use the DOM structure to add labels 15:00:16 LaurentLM: There is no DOM range selector that is pure serialization of the DOM range 15:00:39 ivan: CSS selector is probably the most complex one. May be the most important one 15:02:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:02:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-pm-ann-minutes.html ivan 15:04:21 rrsagent, bye 15:04:21 I see no action items