IRC log of i18n on 2025-07-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:38:02 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:38:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-i18n-irc
13:38:06 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #i18n
13:38:16 [addison]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13:38:28 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/b7edae68-f52c-4aab-a1a6-3c37459e0786/20250710T150000/
13:38:28 [agendabot]
clear agenda
13:38:28 [agendabot]
agenda+ Agenda Review
13:38:28 [agendabot]
agenda+ Info Share
13:38:30 [agendabot]
agenda+ Review RADAR Review
13:38:31 [addison]
Chair: Addison Phillips
13:38:32 [agendabot]
agenda+ Pending Issue Review
13:38:34 [agendabot]
agenda+ Typeface Style in the glossary
13:38:37 [agendabot]
agenda+ Specdev PR for Bidi Mirroring
13:38:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:38:41 [agendabot]
agenda+ AOB?
13:38:57 [addison]
agenda+ Control the line height / proximity of text containing emphasis marks
13:56:24 [addison]
present+ Addison
13:56:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:58:34 [atsushi]
atsushi has joined #i18n
13:59:21 [addison]
present+ Atsushi
14:01:55 [xfq]
present+ Fuqiao
14:02:17 [xfq]
scribe: xfq
14:03:02 [addison]
regrets+ JcK
14:03:14 [xfq]
present+ Richard
14:04:34 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 1
14:04:34 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:04:34 [addison]
agenda?
14:04:58 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 2
14:04:58 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:05:05 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues
14:05:11 [addison]
#176
14:05:16 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/176 -> Action 176 add WG comment to html 11395 (on aphillips) due 2025-07-03
14:05:21 [addison]
#175
14:05:22 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/175 -> Action 175 respond to our #2005 (on aphillips) due 2025-06-26
14:05:27 [addison]
#174
14:05:28 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/174 -> Action 174 add 'typeface style` to the glossary (on r12a) due 2025-06-19
14:06:51 [addison]
close #174
14:06:53 [gb]
Closed -> issue #174 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/174
14:06:53 [addison]
#173
14:06:54 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/173 -> Action 173 ping zainab (on aphillips) due 2025-06-19
14:07:32 [addison]
#169
14:07:32 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/169 -> Action 169 reply to html 10843 and css 9832 (on aphillips) due 2025-05-08
14:07:38 [addison]
#162
14:07:38 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/162 -> Action 162 poll I18N/CSS for new day/time (on aphillips) due 2025-03-25
14:07:52 [addison]
#157
14:07:53 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/157 -> Action 157 write glossary proposal identifying options and next steps for those options (on aphillips) due 2025-02-20
14:08:03 [addison]
#127
14:08:04 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/127 -> Action 127 make a list of shared topics of interest between TG2 and W3C-I18N (on aphillips) due 2024-09-30
14:08:09 [addison]
#33
14:08:09 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips)
14:08:22 [addison]
#7
14:08:22 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023
14:08:30 [xfq]
addison: I closed a number of marked closed issues
14:08:35 [addison]
#4
14:08:36 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on aphillips) due 27 Jul 2023
14:08:47 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 3
14:08:47 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Review RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:09:04 [xfq]
agenda?
14:13:07 [addison]
https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1
14:13:07 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 4
14:13:07 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:13:07 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending
14:13:07 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 8
14:13:07 [Zakim]
agendum 8 -- Control the line height / proximity of text containing emphasis marks -- taken up [from addison]
14:13:07 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11257
14:13:07 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11257 -> Issue 11257 [css-text-decor] Control the line height / proximity of text containing emphasis marks (by xfq) [css-text-decor-3] [css-text-decor-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq] [i18n-klreq] [i18n-mlreq]
14:13:07 [addison]
fuqiao: this css issue that i raised in november
14:13:07 [addison]
... when using text emphasis in cjk
14:13:07 [addison]
... in many fonts, it tends to increase the line height
14:13:07 [addison]
... that's undesirable, seen people reporting this multiple times, need some way to address this
14:13:07 [addison]
... that's what the issue says
14:13:07 [addison]
... line height is one issue
14:13:07 [addison]
... proximity of emphasis mark and text is too wide sometimes
14:13:07 [addison]
... not exactly the same issue, but related
14:13:07 [r12a]
q+
14:13:07 [addison]
... propose that we mark this issue as needs-resolution
14:13:07 [addison]
ack next
14:13:46 [xfq]
r12a: I think two ways that we might expect these marks to be implemented
14:13:46 [xfq]
... is the emphasis marks are in the font, there's not much to say, because it's up to the font designer to get that positioning right
14:14:31 [xfq]
... in terms of the closeness of the marks to the text, there might be an issue if the marks are sythesized
14:14:51 [xfq]
https://bug-239693-attachments.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=458218
14:15:31 [xfq]
r12a: @@1
14:16:33 [xfq]
https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-decor/#text-emphasis-style-property
14:17:00 [xfq]
r12a: the size of the dot is dictated by the font
14:17:14 [xfq]
... unless the font doesn't contain a glyph for that particular code point
14:17:44 [xfq]
addison: it's a little weird to be using a shape that's just a normal code point in the font and repurposing it
14:18:18 [xfq]
r12a: I think that's the way it's been done for years and years now
14:18:35 [xfq]
... but I'm not quite clear on the detailed mechanics
14:22:44 [xfq]
... why some of the these emphasis marks are closer than others
14:22:44 [xfq]
... what determines that?
14:22:44 [atsushi]
q+ for in JLreq, or normal Japanese typography, emphasis marks are defined as 1/2 of base text..., not for zh-*?
14:22:44 [xfq]
addison: when I switched to Chrome it does a different thing
14:22:44 [xfq]
r12a: yeah
14:23:36 [xfq]
... in Firefox the thing that's labeled 'hiragino sans' is @@1
14:24:19 [xfq]
... you probably also need the language to be specified
14:24:46 [xfq]
addison: I've certainly seen the line spacing problem
14:25:01 [xfq]
... I think it's clear that there's at least some question about positioning
14:25:07 [atsushi]
+1
14:25:20 [xfq]
... needs-resolution seems like the right thing to do
14:25:29 [xfq]
... anybody opposed to just tracking?
14:25:36 [xfq]
r12a: I don't object to that
14:25:44 [xfq]
... but there's another thing I wanted to bring up
14:25:49 [xfq]
... related to line spacing
14:26:02 [xfq]
... I remember bringing this up many years ago
14:26:11 [xfq]
... more than one occation with Japanese folks
14:26:32 [xfq]
... the content author has to set the line height to @@2
14:26:59 [xfq]
addison: if they're going to emphasize then they need to make enough space for that to take place
14:27:30 [xfq]
r12a: I'm questioning whether there is actually an issue
14:27:56 [addison]
ack next
14:27:57 [Zakim]
atsushi, you wanted to discuss in JLreq, or normal Japanese typography, emphasis marks are defined as 1/2 of base text..., not for zh-*?
14:30:26 [xfq]
r12a: "force the browser to select a font that displays emphasis marks correctly without widening line spacing, and/or"
14:30:26 [xfq]
... is there an expectation it could use a different font?
14:30:26 [xfq]
... because that seems to be the implication of that line
14:31:58 [xfq]
... than the one which is being used for the content
14:31:58 [xfq]
... or is the expectation that emphasis marks are chosen by the browser from a particular font and they're always the same
14:31:58 [xfq]
... and if so what does that have to do with default widening line spacing
14:31:58 [xfq]
... manage the spacing and proximity of the emphasis marks alongside the text was fine
14:33:18 [xfq]
xfq: @@3
14:36:39 [xfq]
addison: for example, if the guidance is "if you don't want the text emphasis marks to interrupt your line spacing, you should set your line spacing to accomodate emphasis marks, because the browser won't do that for you automagically"
14:36:39 [xfq]
... that might be worthy of a note, but it doesn't mean that we would change the spec
14:37:41 [xfq]
xfq: @@4
14:37:53 [xfq]
[[
14:37:54 [xfq]
the UA may opt to use a font known to be good for emphasis marks, or the marks may instead be synthesized by the UA.
14:37:55 [xfq]
]]
14:38:07 [xfq]
addison: it could mean just be sure you pick a font that has a glyph
14:40:41 [addison]
agenda?
14:40:52 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 5
14:40:52 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Typeface Style in the glossary -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:40:56 [xfq]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:40:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-i18n-minutes.html xfq
14:41:07 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/174
14:41:08 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/174 -> CLOSED Action 174 add 'typeface style` to the glossary (on r12a) due 2025-06-19
14:44:56 [xfq]
[r12a does live edits]
14:47:35 [xfq]
r12a: I put a link to "Typeface styles & font fallback"
14:48:30 [xfq]
Bert: should you use the word classification instead of style?
14:48:51 [xfq]
r12a: it's a bit of a mouthful
14:49:09 [xfq]
... it clashes with the word 'class', which is also used in HTML and CSS
14:49:22 [xfq]
addison: c12n
14:49:52 [xfq]
Bert: Vox-ATypI classification
14:50:39 [xfq]
Bert: I think the word 'style' might be a bit confusing
14:51:28 [xfq]
r12a: we changed the first word from 'font' to 'typeface'
14:51:53 [xfq]
... people refer to them as styles already
14:53:23 [xfq]
addison: we're inventing a neologism here
14:53:34 [xfq]
... maybe we're not all satisfied with the specific term
14:53:40 [xfq]
... is the definition good?
14:54:11 [xfq]
r12a: btw, it's not completely a neologism either, because it came out of Wikipedia
14:55:57 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 6
14:55:57 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- Specdev PR for Bidi Mirroring -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:56:07 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/163
14:56:07 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/163 -> Pull Request 163 Mention layout mirroring for bidi (by xfq)
14:56:14 [addison]
https://deploy-preview-163--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/
14:56:40 [xfq]
https://deploy-preview-163--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#bidi_user_interface
14:57:50 [xfq]
r12a: it points to a label that doesn't exist
14:58:02 [xfq]
... I made a comment about that
14:59:21 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/163#issuecomment-3036004431
14:59:46 [xfq]
r12a: my concern is that's a bit too specific
15:00:12 [xfq]
addison: there's a possibility that we want to separate this from other bidi text ones, or not
15:00:26 [xfq]
... whatever we do, if we create a new label we want to link to it
15:02:03 [xfq]
r12a: I don't know what the answer is, I'm saying that we just need to think about it a bit
15:06:10 [xfq]
addison: in recent years I've tried harder not to do the rtl penalty box
15:07:28 [xfq]
r12a: are we seeing this from our perspective, or are we seeing it from the perspective of the people who come to this document?
15:07:58 [xfq]
... I suspect that a lot of people who come to this document may be more interested in a section on typographic control than they are on a section in text direction
15:08:17 [xfq]
... because they are on a section in text direction, because they just don't know
15:08:56 [xfq]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:08:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-i18n-minutes.html xfq
15:09:31 [addison]
present+ Bert
15:09:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:09:44 [addison]
zakim, bye
15:09:47 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Atsushi, Fuqiao, Richard, Bert
15:09:47 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n
15:09:47 [xfq]
xfq: maybe merge it with logical properties and rename it to bidi styling?
15:09:52 [xfq]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:09:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-i18n-minutes.html xfq