13:38:02 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 13:38:06 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-i18n-irc 13:38:06 Zakim has joined #i18n 13:38:16 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 13:38:28 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/b7edae68-f52c-4aab-a1a6-3c37459e0786/20250710T150000/ 13:38:28 clear agenda 13:38:28 agenda+ Agenda Review 13:38:28 agenda+ Info Share 13:38:30 agenda+ Review RADAR Review 13:38:31 Chair: Addison Phillips 13:38:32 agenda+ Pending Issue Review 13:38:34 agenda+ Typeface Style in the glossary 13:38:37 agenda+ Specdev PR for Bidi Mirroring 13:38:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-i18n-minutes.html addison 13:38:41 agenda+ AOB? 13:38:57 agenda+ Control the line height / proximity of text containing emphasis marks 13:56:24 present+ Addison 13:56:32 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-i18n-minutes.html addison 13:58:34 atsushi has joined #i18n 13:59:21 present+ Atsushi 14:01:55 present+ Fuqiao 14:02:17 scribe: xfq 14:03:02 regrets+ JcK 14:03:14 present+ Richard 14:04:34 zakim, take up agendum 1 14:04:34 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:04:34 agenda? 14:04:58 zakim, take up agendum 2 14:04:58 agendum 2 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:05:05 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues 14:05:11 #176 14:05:16 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/176 -> Action 176 add WG comment to html 11395 (on aphillips) due 2025-07-03 14:05:21 #175 14:05:22 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/175 -> Action 175 respond to our #2005 (on aphillips) due 2025-06-26 14:05:27 #174 14:05:28 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/174 -> Action 174 add 'typeface style` to the glossary (on r12a) due 2025-06-19 14:06:51 close #174 14:06:53 Closed -> issue #174 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/174 14:06:53 #173 14:06:54 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/173 -> Action 173 ping zainab (on aphillips) due 2025-06-19 14:07:32 #169 14:07:32 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/169 -> Action 169 reply to html 10843 and css 9832 (on aphillips) due 2025-05-08 14:07:38 #162 14:07:38 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/162 -> Action 162 poll I18N/CSS for new day/time (on aphillips) due 2025-03-25 14:07:52 #157 14:07:53 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/157 -> Action 157 write glossary proposal identifying options and next steps for those options (on aphillips) due 2025-02-20 14:08:03 #127 14:08:04 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/127 -> Action 127 make a list of shared topics of interest between TG2 and W3C-I18N (on aphillips) due 2024-09-30 14:08:09 #33 14:08:09 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips) 14:08:22 #7 14:08:22 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023 14:08:30 addison: I closed a number of marked closed issues 14:08:35 #4 14:08:36 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on aphillips) due 27 Jul 2023 14:08:47 zakim, take up agendum 3 14:08:47 agendum 3 -- Review RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:09:04 agenda? 14:13:07 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1 14:13:07 zakim, take up agendum 4 14:13:07 agendum 4 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:13:07 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending 14:13:07 zakim, take up agendum 8 14:13:07 agendum 8 -- Control the line height / proximity of text containing emphasis marks -- taken up [from addison] 14:13:07 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11257 14:13:07 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11257 -> Issue 11257 [css-text-decor] Control the line height / proximity of text containing emphasis marks (by xfq) [css-text-decor-3] [css-text-decor-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq] [i18n-klreq] [i18n-mlreq] 14:13:07 fuqiao: this css issue that i raised in november 14:13:07 ... when using text emphasis in cjk 14:13:07 ... in many fonts, it tends to increase the line height 14:13:07 ... that's undesirable, seen people reporting this multiple times, need some way to address this 14:13:07 ... that's what the issue says 14:13:07 ... line height is one issue 14:13:07 ... proximity of emphasis mark and text is too wide sometimes 14:13:07 ... not exactly the same issue, but related 14:13:07 q+ 14:13:07 ... propose that we mark this issue as needs-resolution 14:13:07 ack next 14:13:46 r12a: I think two ways that we might expect these marks to be implemented 14:13:46 ... is the emphasis marks are in the font, there's not much to say, because it's up to the font designer to get that positioning right 14:14:31 ... in terms of the closeness of the marks to the text, there might be an issue if the marks are sythesized 14:14:51 https://bug-239693-attachments.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=458218 14:15:31 r12a: @@1 14:16:33 https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-decor/#text-emphasis-style-property 14:17:00 r12a: the size of the dot is dictated by the font 14:17:14 ... unless the font doesn't contain a glyph for that particular code point 14:17:44 addison: it's a little weird to be using a shape that's just a normal code point in the font and repurposing it 14:18:18 r12a: I think that's the way it's been done for years and years now 14:18:35 ... but I'm not quite clear on the detailed mechanics 14:22:44 ... why some of the these emphasis marks are closer than others 14:22:44 ... what determines that? 14:22:44 q+ for in JLreq, or normal Japanese typography, emphasis marks are defined as 1/2 of base text..., not for zh-*? 14:22:44 addison: when I switched to Chrome it does a different thing 14:22:44 r12a: yeah 14:23:36 ... in Firefox the thing that's labeled 'hiragino sans' is @@1 14:24:19 ... you probably also need the language to be specified 14:24:46 addison: I've certainly seen the line spacing problem 14:25:01 ... I think it's clear that there's at least some question about positioning 14:25:07 +1 14:25:20 ... needs-resolution seems like the right thing to do 14:25:29 ... anybody opposed to just tracking? 14:25:36 r12a: I don't object to that 14:25:44 ... but there's another thing I wanted to bring up 14:25:49 ... related to line spacing 14:26:02 ... I remember bringing this up many years ago 14:26:11 ... more than one occation with Japanese folks 14:26:32 ... the content author has to set the line height to @@2 14:26:59 addison: if they're going to emphasize then they need to make enough space for that to take place 14:27:30 r12a: I'm questioning whether there is actually an issue 14:27:56 ack next 14:27:57 atsushi, you wanted to discuss in JLreq, or normal Japanese typography, emphasis marks are defined as 1/2 of base text..., not for zh-*? 14:30:26 r12a: "force the browser to select a font that displays emphasis marks correctly without widening line spacing, and/or" 14:30:26 ... is there an expectation it could use a different font? 14:30:26 ... because that seems to be the implication of that line 14:31:58 ... than the one which is being used for the content 14:31:58 ... or is the expectation that emphasis marks are chosen by the browser from a particular font and they're always the same 14:31:58 ... and if so what does that have to do with default widening line spacing 14:31:58 ... manage the spacing and proximity of the emphasis marks alongside the text was fine 14:33:18 xfq: @@3 14:36:39 addison: for example, if the guidance is "if you don't want the text emphasis marks to interrupt your line spacing, you should set your line spacing to accomodate emphasis marks, because the browser won't do that for you automagically" 14:36:39 ... that might be worthy of a note, but it doesn't mean that we would change the spec 14:37:41 xfq: @@4 14:37:53 [[ 14:37:54 the UA may opt to use a font known to be good for emphasis marks, or the marks may instead be synthesized by the UA. 14:37:55 ]] 14:38:07 addison: it could mean just be sure you pick a font that has a glyph 14:40:41 agenda? 14:40:52 zakim, take up agendum 5 14:40:52 agendum 5 -- Typeface Style in the glossary -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:40:56 rrsagent, make minutes 14:40:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-i18n-minutes.html xfq 14:41:07 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/174 14:41:08 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/174 -> CLOSED Action 174 add 'typeface style` to the glossary (on r12a) due 2025-06-19 14:44:56 [r12a does live edits] 14:47:35 r12a: I put a link to "Typeface styles & font fallback" 14:48:30 Bert: should you use the word classification instead of style? 14:48:51 r12a: it's a bit of a mouthful 14:49:09 ... it clashes with the word 'class', which is also used in HTML and CSS 14:49:22 addison: c12n 14:49:52 Bert: Vox-ATypI classification 14:50:39 Bert: I think the word 'style' might be a bit confusing 14:51:28 r12a: we changed the first word from 'font' to 'typeface' 14:51:53 ... people refer to them as styles already 14:53:23 addison: we're inventing a neologism here 14:53:34 ... maybe we're not all satisfied with the specific term 14:53:40 ... is the definition good? 14:54:11 r12a: btw, it's not completely a neologism either, because it came out of Wikipedia 14:55:57 zakim, take up agendum 6 14:55:57 agendum 6 -- Specdev PR for Bidi Mirroring -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:56:07 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/163 14:56:07 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/163 -> Pull Request 163 Mention layout mirroring for bidi (by xfq) 14:56:14 https://deploy-preview-163--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/ 14:56:40 https://deploy-preview-163--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#bidi_user_interface 14:57:50 r12a: it points to a label that doesn't exist 14:58:02 ... I made a comment about that 14:59:21 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/163#issuecomment-3036004431 14:59:46 r12a: my concern is that's a bit too specific 15:00:12 addison: there's a possibility that we want to separate this from other bidi text ones, or not 15:00:26 ... whatever we do, if we create a new label we want to link to it 15:02:03 r12a: I don't know what the answer is, I'm saying that we just need to think about it a bit 15:06:10 addison: in recent years I've tried harder not to do the rtl penalty box 15:07:28 r12a: are we seeing this from our perspective, or are we seeing it from the perspective of the people who come to this document? 15:07:58 ... I suspect that a lot of people who come to this document may be more interested in a section on typographic control than they are on a section in text direction 15:08:17 ... because they are on a section in text direction, because they just don't know 15:08:56 rrsagent, make minutes 15:08:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-i18n-minutes.html xfq 15:09:31 present+ Bert 15:09:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:09:44 zakim, bye 15:09:47 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Atsushi, Fuqiao, Richard, Bert 15:09:47 Zakim has left #i18n 15:09:47 xfq: maybe merge it with logical properties and rename it to bidi styling? 15:09:52 rrsagent, make minutes 15:09:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-i18n-minutes.html xfq