12:58:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:58:27 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/07/09-matf-irc
12:58:27 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:58:28 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:58:31 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 9 July 2025
12:58:31 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:58:38 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 9 July 2025
12:59:00 <JJ> chair+
12:59:14 <JJ> agenda+ Page definition
12:59:19 <JJ> agenda+ Mobile operating system definition
12:59:25 <JJ> agenda+ Keyboard interface definition
13:00:14 <JJ> Zakim, item 0 = Project planning
13:00:14 <Zakim> I can only replace agenda items by number
13:00:20 <JJ> Zakim, item 1 = Project planning
13:00:20 <Zakim> agendum 1 replaced
13:00:28 <JJ> Zakim, item 2 = Page definition
13:00:28 <Zakim> agendum 2 replaced
13:00:40 <JJ> Zakim, item 3 = Mobile operating system definition
13:00:40 <Zakim> agendum 3 replaced
13:00:41 <JJ> agenda?
13:00:52 <JJ> agenda+ Keyboard interface definition
13:01:33 <pauljadam> pauljadam has joined #matf
13:01:36 <quintinb> quintinb has joined #MATF
13:02:51 <JJ> regrets+ JonGibbins
13:02:56 <JJ> regrets+ Tanya
13:02:59 <Aash> Aash has joined #matf
13:03:02 <JJ> regrets+ Joe_Humbert
13:03:55 <quintinb> scribe: quintinb
13:04:06 <Tim> Tim has joined #matf
13:04:20 <quintinb> scribe: Aash
13:04:30 <Aash> Thank you quintinb
13:04:37 <Rob-W> Rob-W has joined #matf
13:04:39 <quintinb> Haha, no, thank you!
13:04:50 <Aash> present+
13:04:52 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:04:52 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Project planning -- taken up
13:05:02 <JJ> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/147
13:05:09 <Aash> JJ introduced project planning
13:05:27 <Aash> @jj
13:06:26 <Aash> JJ showcased the sections where all the issues are placed, and the overall structure
13:06:38 <pauljadam> present+
13:06:58 <Rob-W> present+
13:07:19 <Jamie8> Jamie8 has joined #matf
13:07:31 <Rob-W> The board is looking great, thanks to everyone who's put work into creating that
13:07:52 <Jamie8> present+
13:08:00 <Jamie8> q+
13:08:02 <Tim> I agree, looks great! Nice to have an overview like this
13:08:35 <Aash> Jamie8 : how do you want to assign these issue to the members in this meeting?
13:09:19 <JJ> ack Jamie8
13:09:25 <Aash> JJ we may have to create subgroups to work on grouo of issues
13:09:26 <JJ> q?
13:09:31 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:10:18 <Carol> Carol has joined #MATF
13:10:22 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:10:22 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Page definition -- taken up
13:10:24 <Carol> present+
13:10:36 <JJ> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/147/views/1?pane=issue&itemId=112720148&issue=w3c%7Cmatf%7C110
13:11:44 <Jamie8> Jamie8 has left #matf
13:12:02 <Jamie8> Jamie8 has joined #matf
13:12:36 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:12:40 <Jamie> present+
13:13:47 <Aash> The team has agreed on the "page" as a common nomenclature
13:13:57 <Aash> from Screen vs Page vs View
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13:15:05 <julianmka> present+
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13:18:17 <pauljadam> got this out of ChatGPT: A page is a distinct section of an app that presents a specific set of content or functionality and is accessed through navigation. Each page focuses on a particular task or purpose, such as browsing items, editing a profile, or reviewing settings. Users move between pages to complete workflows or explore different parts of
13:18:17 <pauljadam> the app.
13:18:17 <Aash> JJ shared the definition proposals.
13:18:29 <Aash> We can start using "page" as a standard in out drafts
13:18:38 <Aash> q+
13:18:45 <JJ> ack Aash
13:19:05 <pauljadam> dialogs are a part of a page but not a page
13:19:11 <pauljadam> just like the web
13:19:36 <Aash> Aash: what about the bottomsheets or full size overlays, do they count as pages?
13:19:49 <pauljadam> dialogs are not pages
13:20:43 <Aash> JJ: it depends on if it can be used as a standalone entity or depends on the underlying page
13:21:13 <pauljadam> the embedded resource thing does not seem necessary
13:22:07 <pauljadam> A page is a distinct part of an app focused on a specific task or content. Users navigate between pages to complete actions or access different features.
13:22:13 <pauljadam> ChatGPT shortened it :)
13:22:38 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:22:42 <Jamie> present+
13:22:50 <Jamie> +1 pauljadam
13:23:29 <pauljadam> good idea on saying dialogs are part of the page but not a page
13:23:41 <Jamie> q+
13:23:42 <Aash> JJ we need to add examples as a note to explain what is a page and what is not a page
13:23:42 <pauljadam> navigation menus are not a page
13:23:49 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:24:25 <Aash> Jamie : is this currently a placeholder or are we creating a working definition to be used?
13:25:04 <Aash> JJ : Sicne we are in agreement to use "Page" and we will try our best to finalize the defintion today and only modify it IF needed
13:25:24 <pauljadam> In Atomic Design, the concept of a “Page” refers to the highest level of UI composition — it represents a fully assembled user interface that brings together all design elements in a real-world context.
13:25:49 <JJ> ACTION: Add note or example emphasizing what would *not* be a page, e.g. a dialog, modal or navigation menu
13:26:30 <pauljadam> drop it
13:26:30 <pauljadam> drop embedded resource
13:26:30 <Jamie> +1 pauljadam
13:26:41 <quintinb> +1
13:26:48 <Aash> +1
13:26:55 <Tim> +1
13:27:10 <JJ> ACTION: Drop 'embedded resource' from the definition text, maybe use something like: "A page is a distinct part of an app focused on a specific task or content. Users navigate between pages to complete actions or access different features."
13:27:59 <pauljadam> that sounds better than resource
13:28:52 <Tim> q+
13:29:00 <JJ> ack Tim
13:29:03 <pauljadam> not sure if you need to say a page has a Page Title might be good
13:29:09 <pauljadam> and Pages need their Lang defined
13:29:20 <Jamie> and are parts of sets
13:29:27 <pauljadam> yeah distinct section or part is too generic
13:30:05 <Aash> Tim : If we say distinct part, are modals not distict parts?
13:31:21 <Aash> JJ it would not matter if someone treats modals as pages, except the title of the page part
13:31:25 <pauljadam> trying with ChatGPT to tweak: A page in an app presents content or functionality, must include a page title, and supports user navigation between different parts of the app. Dialogs are not considered pages.
13:32:58 <Aash> JJ we can add a note about the modals in the defintion
13:33:12 <pauljadam> or how you access and open the dialog, if you go to the page first to open the dialog then the dialog is not a page, it's part of the page
13:33:57 <Aash> A few modals can be opened from multiple pages. Example, add money to wallet in a superapp
13:34:13 <pauljadam> still they are part of those apges
13:34:14 <pauljadam> pages
13:34:38 <julianmka> modals can also look like pages at larger text sizes -- a shorter bottom sheet can take up the whole screen, for example
13:34:50 <Rob-W> Some modals can navigate to multiple screens within the modal
13:35:04 <pauljadam> multi page modal :)
13:35:21 <Aash> +1 julianmka
13:35:23 <Tim> we have to make that clear to people using our document for audits. I like the idea of adding this into a note.
13:35:26 <pauljadam> Mostly this definition is to determine what needs a page title
13:35:35 <pauljadam> the page needs a page title, the dialog needs a heading :)
13:36:26 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:36:26 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Mobile operating system definition -- taken up
13:36:35 <JJ> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/147/views/1?pane=issue&itemId=114303630&issue=w3c%7Cmatf%7C102
13:37:52 <pauljadam> guidance should be generic likely so it could be applied to any mobileOS, techniques could be specific to the code for each platform?
13:39:33 <pauljadam> Like how WCAG is generic but there are techniques for each technology like PDF, Flex, JavaScript, ARIA, HTML, Silverlight used to be there
13:39:45 <Aash> JJ need to check if we can include Android and iOS in the title. How do we make it clear to people that this is our focus? also do we provide the guidance for other OS as well?
13:40:46 <pauljadam> Focus could be "mobile apps" if we need to cover more than just pure native, are we covering hybrid and web views inside native apps or not really talking about that?
13:41:39 <Tim> using the magic words "including but not limited to" ;)
13:41:41 <Aash> JJ the focus is on the native part of it, but our scope includes web views
13:43:24 <JJ> q?
13:43:38 <pauljadam> text spacing I'm not sure if users really can adjust their CSS on mobile so easy?
13:44:32 <Aash> pauljadam in the browser users can control CSS, but in Native, do they have any control?
13:45:05 <Aash> JJ Hybrid apps might not be able to override the styling of the embedded pages
13:46:49 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:46:49 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Keyboard interface definition -- taken up [from JJ]
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13:46:59 <JJ> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/147/views/1?pane=issue&itemId=116634431&issue=w3c%7Cmatf%7C66
13:48:51 <quintinb> Except that joysticks are keyboard interfaces...
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13:50:02 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/220
13:50:41 <pauljadam> I like the existing definition https://w3c.github.io/wcag2ict/#dfn-keyboard-interface. Could be good to add something extra that includes Switch Control, it looks like the existing definition already covers Voice Control.
13:51:46 <quintinb> Really worried about the direction of "I don't think x will work" - assistive technology can be strips of paper - what folks use as AT is not our remit
13:52:06 <Jamie> +1 pauljadam
13:52:21 <Jamie> +1 quintinb
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13:54:02 <quintinb> Yeah I think keyboard interface applies as written for mobile too
13:56:13 <quintinb> q+
13:56:42 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:57:01 <Aash> quintinb joystick is a Dpad with LRUD controsl
13:58:13 <Aash> JJ if we decide to split keyboard interface and Accessibility interface, how would this affect the success criteria?
14:00:12 <Aash> JJ to figure out if any other definitions need attention
14:00:51 <Aash> Aash has left #matf
14:01:25 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
14:01:25 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Aash, pauljadam, Rob-W, Jamie, Carol, julianmka
14:01:46 <JJ> present+ Tim
14:01:48 <quintinb> quintinb was here too
14:01:53 <quintinb> present+
14:01:54 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:01:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/09-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:02:04 <Jamie> lol
14:02:27 <JJ> yup its logged
14:18:02 <JJ> JJ has joined #matf
14:18:06 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
14:18:06 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/07/09-matf-actions.rdf :
14:18:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Add note or example emphasizing what would *not* be a page, e.g. a dialog, modal or navigation menu [1]
14:18:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/07/09-matf-irc#T13-25-49
14:18:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Drop 'embedded resource' from the definition text, maybe use something like: "A page is a distinct part of an app focused on a specific task or content. Users navigate between pages to complete actions or access different features." [2]
14:18:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/07/09-matf-irc#T13-27-10
14:18:12 <JJ> zakim, bye
14:18:12 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Aash, pauljadam, Rob-W, Jamie, Carol, julianmka, Tim, quintinb
14:18:12 <Zakim> Zakim has left #matf