18:04:31 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:04:35 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/07/08-aria-apg-irc 18:04:35 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:04:36 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:04:37 present+ jugglinmike 18:04:43 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:04:49 present+ Daniel 18:04:53 present+ howard-e 18:04:55 present+ lola 18:05:10 present+ Matt_King 18:05:13 present+ Adam_Page 18:05:18 topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:05:21 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/July-8%2C-2025-Agenda 18:05:29 Matt_King: No meeting July 15 18:05:32 Matt_King: Next meeting: July 22 18:05:56 present+ Jem 18:06:56 Matt_King: Any requests for change to agenda? 18:07:36 Matt_King: I explicitly left out the SkipTo.js issue, with apologies to Jongunderson 18:07:51 Matt_King: Hearing no suggestions for changes to the agenda, we'll stick with the agenda as planned 18:07:57 Topic: Publication planning 18:08:09 Matt_King: We're planning on publishing tomorrow or Thursday 18:08:51 Daniel: No preference between those two days, though we may not get to it until Thursday 18:08:58 howard-e: I will tag you 18:09:09 Matt_King: There are five things that are done, landed and in the "closed" tab. 18:09:18 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:09:29 Matt_King: There are two things that are open: one is on the agenda, and the other (the one on color contrast) will not be ready in time 18:09:32 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:09:43 s/jongunderson/jongund/ 18:09:46 present+ jongund 18:10:09 Matt_King: I'll send howard-e the "green light" via e-mail when we've landed everything we are going to land--hopefully this afternoon. 18:10:22 Matt_King: And after that, hopefully Jem can help with the QA 18:10:24 Jem: Sure! 18:10:29 howard-e: Sounds good! 18:10:52 Topic: PR 3251 - New example demonstrating expandable cards/regions 18:10:59 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3251 18:11:27 Matt_King: Both Adam_Page and I were pushing changes today. I think those were minor and that we have sufficient approving reviews 18:11:48 Matt_King: There was one piece of "spin off" feedback regarding the character casing in JavaScript 18:12:04 Adam_Page: I don't think there is any other feedback that we haven't addressed. 18:12:41 Adam_Page: There might be some open questions remaining from earlier reviews... Nope, it looks like everything is resolved 18:14:18 q+ 18:14:35 ack Daniel 18:15:11 Daniel: Do we want to add two phrases for the example to help explain the last paragraph? 18:15:18 Matt_King: We could make the last paragraph more specific 18:15:39 Daniel: There's another audience that visit APG to know how things work. And we have pages that are more explanatory for them 18:16:13 Matt_King: What do you have in mind? Maybe, "Instead, by modifying the structure to be a card that contains a button rather than a heading where all of its content is a button" 18:16:25 Adam_Page: We're distinguishing it from a vanilla disclosure 18:16:38 Matt_King: Ah, but the vanilla disclosure doesn't have a heading 18:17:08 Matt_King: "We modify the disclosure so that instead of the entire disclosure being a button containing plain test, we make it a card with the 'article' role" 18:17:16 Matt_King: There's a lot of stuff inside of the card besides just the button 18:17:39 Adam_Page: Right. And that interesting stuff--there's a lot of it in both the "summary" as well as the expanded form 18:17:53 Matt_King: I'm happy to help doing a little wordsmithing, if you like 18:18:18 Adam_Page: I can take a whack at it, but I feel like you have a better handle on the essence of what we need to communicate here. If you can offer a suggest, then I can wordsmith it 18:18:29 Matt_King: Yeah, I can do that. 18:19:37 Jem: When you search with the "filter", when does this example show up? 18:19:45 Jem: It's under "disclosure" 18:19:53 s/Jem:/Matt_King:/ 18:20:56 Matt_King: We didn't include the words "region" or "expandable" in the final draft because we're not using the "region" role and because the card is more generic 18:21:12 Matt_King: We don't have a "card" pattern of any kind 18:21:39 Matt_King: If were to ever add a "card collection" pattern, we would probably used his code as an example of that 18:22:32 Matt_King: This almost demonstrates a "card collection" pattern. Adam_Page included three cards--that's a collection! 18:22:52 Matt_King: We have an open issue for search--we never implemented search 18:23:28 Topic: PR 3306: Rename Javascript to JavaScript 18:23:34 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3306 18:23:46 Matt_King: This was spun up as a result of a comment in a previous pull request 18:24:40 Matt_King: A contributor made a fix for this almost immediately! I included a link in the agenda 18:24:54 howard-e: I checked out the error in CI, and I replied to it on the pull request 18:25:27 howard-e: The template doesn't have the updated case, but they modified the affected file directly 18:26:06 howard-e: I was giving the contributor a chance to update 18:26:08 Matt_King: Got it 18:26:25 Matt_King: I would like to have someone assigned as a reviewer so that when the change lands, someone can step in and finalize 18:26:34 Jem: I volunteer. I assigned to myself 18:27:00 Matt_King: Thank you! 18:27:13 Topic: Issue 3261: Spinbuttons, Target Size, and equivalent exception 18:27:20 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3261 18:27:36 Matt_King: We're continuing a discussion that we started last week 18:28:22 Matt_King: There's one question about the presence of buttons 18:29:08 Matt_King: There's also a broader question: why do we have a spin button without an "edit" box? Is that a pattern that we really want others to use? Or would we rather promote the use of a slider for those situations 18:29:50 Matt_King: Do we want to keep this example as-is? that is, a spinner without a text input? 18:30:14 Matt_King: Last week, Adam_Page mentioned how date pickers in iOS were similar, but not identica 18:30:20 s/identica/identical/ 18:30:35 Adam_Page: Right, not identical, but very similar. Three spinners next to one another 18:30:54 Adam_Page: The main difference is that those spinners are infinite 18:31:33 Matt_King: So it looks like one of those old fashion digital clocks where you could see the mechanism that rolled on the inside 18:31:44 Adam_Page: Yes, I suspect those were an inspiration for the visual design 18:31:55 Adam_Page: I find this design super-cumbersome 18:32:29 Matt_King: That was the complaint in ARIA-AT. Folks were asking, "why are we going to do interoperability testing on this thing that we would never want people to use?" 18:32:44 Matt_King: I wonder if we could make something work like this in a web context 18:33:21 Adam_Page: I've seen them on the web, but I wonder about the trade-offs. The infinite nature is not trivial 18:33:54 Matt_King: Thinking about the keyboard user's experience, that sounds a little bit like an anti-pattern. Why do heavy engineering for a poor usability experience? 18:34:58 jongund: I've never seen anything like this. I think we were looking for something that was a spinbutton 18:35:13 Matt_King: There are real spinbuttons out there that have an "edit" field. Those exist in the real world 18:35:48 Apple calls this pattern a “Picker”: https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/pickers 18:37:14 Matt_King: A common date-picker that I've seen in web apps that I use (and certainly internally at work), it does have an "edit" field, and tha field takes the values as you press "up arrow" 18:37:37 jongund: What if it was just a number range, for zero to one hundred? 18:38:01 jongund: With dates, you have to worry about format 18:38:10 Matt_King: The ones I'm thinking of only use numbers 18:38:14 Here’s one web implementation from Mobiscroll: https://demo.mobiscroll.com/fullscreen/datetime/mobile-desktop-usage 18:39:49 Matt_King: I have no idea what these things look like, though--whether there is a button for incrementing and decrement, for example. I assume such buttons exist because you can increment and decrement with the arrow keys 18:40:30 Adam_Page: In the link I shared, they replicate the Apple UI. 18:40:40 Adam_Page: And for what it's worth, Apple refers to this pattern as a "picker" 18:41:26 Adam_Page: It is infinite and it is keyboard-operable. I can see it uses some accessible markup, but I don't know how accessible it truly is 18:42:44 Matt_King: HTML "range" is what gives you the native spin behavior, right? 18:43:13 Matt_King: How would an ARIA input type "number" be different than a native HTML one? 18:44:26 Adam_Page: I think the way browsers have implemented the native HTML one, the "up" and "down" buttons are not focusable and may have even been suppressed from the accessibility tree 18:44:33 Matt_King: That would be a good thing! 18:45:33 Matt_King: I've observed date pickers which are three spin buttons that share the same "edit" box 18:46:25 Adobe’s NumberField in ReactAria is a good example of a custom spinner: https://react-spectrum.adobe.com/react-aria/NumberField.html 18:46:32 Matt_King: I actually really like this because it's just one "input" field but it has cool interaction capabilities 18:46:44 Matt_King: I have no idea about what the visual design looks like 18:47:46 Daniel: In the W3C calendar these days, we have a similar thing that Matt_King describes. Unfortunately, it's three tab stops (for day, month, and year), but if you press the arrow key, you travel between them 18:48:42 Matt_King: I think we have two good options for inspiration: the Adobe one that Adam_Page shared and the W3C one that Daniel has just referenced 18:49:23 Matt_King: I am hearing that the example we currently have is more of an example of what you could do, but it's less of an example of something that you would want to do 18:49:39 Matt_King: Do we have consensus on that? Is it something we want to change? 18:50:09 jongund: the APG is ranked highly in my search engine's response to the query "spin button" 18:50:44 Matt_King: We might be able to keep this as a date picker spin button, but just redo it so it has an "edit" field 18:50:57 Matt_King: That seems like the least disruptive and maybe the most useful 18:51:50 Adam_Page: I'll take it, though I'm very busy right now, so it may take me some time 18:51:57 Jem: That's fine! 18:52:09 Jem: Should we close this issue and open a new one? 18:52:53 s/you travel between them/you travel between them. To try it, you just have to edit or create an event on the W3C Calendar/ 18:52:54 Matt_King: I think we can keep this issue and assign it to Adam_Page. We'll have today's meeting minutes posted to the issue's discussion thread. If necessary, we can change the title of the issue 18:53:45 Matt_King: jongund if you have an opportunity to review pull request 3309 (since I know you know this issue really well), that would be helpful. I'm not sure I understand what the contributor is doing--they submitted the patch without a corresponding issue. 18:53:51 jongund: Sure, you can assign it to me 18:54:52 zakim, end the meeting 18:54:52 As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Daniel, howard-e, lola, Matt_King, Adam_Page, Jem, jongund 18:54:54 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 18:54:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/08-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 18:55:03 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 18:55:03 Zakim has left #aria-apg 18:55:09 rrsagent, leave 18:55:09 I see no action items