IRC log of tt on 2025-07-03

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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:00:11 [nigel]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/310
15:00:13 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
15:00:19 [nigel]
Present: Nigel
15:00:22 [nigel]
Chair: Nigel
15:00:30 [nigel]
Regrets: Gary, Cyril
15:00:39 [nigel]
Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-tt-minutes.html
15:00:49 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/03-tt-minutes.html nigel
15:01:31 [nigel]
Present+ Andreas
15:03:52 [nigel]
Present+ Pierre
15:05:34 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
15:06:16 [nigel]
Present+ Atsushi
15:06:43 [nigel]
Nigel: [iterates through agenda]
15:07:14 [nigel]
.. Anything else for the agenda, or points to cover within the agenda?
15:07:47 [nigel]
Andreas: nothing from me
15:07:52 [nigel]
Atsushi: I don't have anything else
15:08:04 [nigel]
Topic: Apply streamlined publication to all of Note track documents
15:08:17 [nigel]
Nigel: As far as I know, this is complete and can come off the agenda from now on.
15:08:31 [nigel]
.. The last piece of this was the TTML Profiles Registry Note, which should now be working.
15:08:54 [cpn]
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15:08:56 [atai]
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15:09:07 [cpn]
present+ Chris_Needham
15:09:07 [cpn]
scribe+
15:09:11 [nigel]
.. There are probably some really old WG Notes that we're not working on and haven't for years.
15:09:24 [nigel]
.. We can ignore them unless we start working on them again, which is extremely unlikely.
15:10:05 [nigel]
Topic: DAPT
15:10:16 [nigel]
Subtopic: Test suite
15:10:39 [cpn]
Nigel: We have the structure of the test suite, and content
15:10:54 [cpn]
... Needs validating and checking, it may need some adjustment
15:11:10 [cpn]
... I haven't added links to the tests from the implementation report, that's still to do
15:11:30 [cpn]
... Some changes have happened during the review. Of the features we had, one was a presentation test, and all the others are validation tests
15:12:07 [cpn]
... Related to script event grouping. Cyril noticed that this is about the ability to nest divs, and TTML1 has a nested div feature
15:12:22 [cpn]
... Opened a feature to remove script event grouping and replace with nested div
15:12:31 [cpn]
... It's not a new feature in DAPT so it can be removed
15:12:48 [cpn]
... Just checking ... PR 304
15:13:00 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/304 Switch #scriptEventGrouping to #nested-div w3c/dapt#304
15:13:33 [cpn]
Nigel: This will also mean that the at-risk feature, #scriptEventGrouping, would need to change to nested div
15:13:41 [cpn]
... But I hope to close that without it being removed
15:14:12 [cpn]
... There's a separate PR on dapt-tests, #38 to remove those tests. That simplifies things, and makes CR exit criteria simpler to achieve as well
15:14:21 [cpn]
... That's good all round
15:15:26 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/297 Required #xmlId-div doesn't match other spec text w3c/dapt#297
15:16:01 [cpn]
Nigel: This got lost in different conversations. The way it was worded in the DAPT spec, the feature extension required every div element to have an xml:id attribute
15:16:17 [cpn]
... That was contrary to other text in the spec that they didn't have to, so it didn't make sense
15:17:15 [cpn]
.. I proposed 3 resolutions to it. Remove the script event mapping, or to modify the scope of xmlId-div, or to look at how to identify whether it's a script event
15:17:32 [cpn]
... I thought the first option was the best way. I talked with Cyril last week, and he agreed
15:17:50 [cpn]
... That simplifies things, and this gave rise to PR #298
15:18:00 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/298 Remove #xmlId-div feature w3c/dapt#298
15:19:03 [cpn]
Nigel: These things together will simplify DAPT, the test suite, and the implementation report, so it's a positive. If you disagree, please let me know
15:19:15 [cpn]
Andreas: Makes sense to me
15:20:13 [cpn]
Nigel: There are 4 open PRs at the moment. There's an informative editorial one on pop prevention, Cyril seems happy with that. There's been some discussion with Simon
15:20:26 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/301 Add an informative section about pop prevention w3c/dapt#301
15:21:22 [cpn]
... Nigel: Techniques to prevent audio pops, e.g., to have a steep ramp up, or having them start at zero, or having a guard
15:21:39 [cpn]
... Simon had a particular preference, and I don't want to be too prescriptive
15:22:22 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/300 Explicitly permit daptm:represents on tt, body, div, p and span w3c/dapt#300
15:22:24 [cpn]
s/... Nigel/Nigel/
15:23:00 [cpn]
Nigel: We had a previous PR, #294, where Andreas and Cyril agreed it had gone too var, adding it to p and span attributes. So I removed the support from p and span in the PR
15:24:02 [cpn]
... Separately I added another issue to add to p and span, #295, seems to make sense to allow script represents. It could lead to cases people might not expect
15:24:33 [cpn]
... You could have a p element corresponding to a text, saying it represents one thing and a span inside that says it represents something else
15:24:45 [cpn]
... So you'd have to compute what it represents
15:26:01 [cpn]
... Imagine an AD that contains both a description of things in the video image, also some written text. They could have different represents values on them
15:26:23 [cpn]
.. But you might want the description so people understand they're different things, and recorded in one go
15:26:45 [cpn]
... In that case you'd have to create multiple script events for the thing supposed to be read out together, and adjust the timings
15:27:32 [cpn]
... Hard to predict that, so you'd have to fix it after recording. It's overly complicated. You'd want to use a single audio recording
15:27:36 [cpn]
... Hope this makes sense!
15:28:24 [cpn]
Andreas: I looked at the PR based on previous issues on clarity of the inheritance, to clarify where represents can sit. I didn't notice you added a note that represents can be on the span level. Is that right?
15:28:26 [cpn]
Nigel: Yes
15:28:34 [cpn]
Andreas: Makes sense to me, given the use case
15:29:06 [cpn]
... It can be applied further down, to text objects
15:29:24 [cpn]
Nigel: Yes, it has been updated
15:29:28 [cpn]
... It should be clear
15:29:44 [cpn]
... It's allowed on p as well
15:29:46 [cpn]
Andreas: OK
15:30:11 [cpn]
Nigel: Thanks. As all the PRs reach their 2 week review period, we'll close them off. If there are related tests, I'll fix those
15:30:22 [cpn]
... Once they're all done, we should publish a new CR snapshot
15:31:10 [nigel]
PROPOSAL: When the currently open pull requests have been closed (by merging or otherwise), request transition to CRS
15:32:15 [atsushi]
q+ wide review?
15:32:34 [nigel]
ack at
15:32:46 [nigel]
ack wide
15:32:47 [nigel]
ack review
15:33:01 [cpn]
Atsushi: Wide review? When something changes we need to request wide review for CRS publication
15:33:24 [cpn]
... We have several small substantive changes as far as I know
15:33:34 [cpn]
Nigel: We've updated the substantive changes document
15:33:59 [cpn]
Atsushi: And for the open PRs...
15:34:21 [cpn]
Nigel: We should do a diff between the updated version and the previous CRS. It's worth checking
15:34:33 [cpn]
... Do we need to request horizontal review on the delta?
15:35:02 [cpn]
Atsushi: Just need to request a delta review with a list of substantive changes, or list of PRs, not a full review
15:35:17 [cpn]
Nigel: So following the HR process, for a delta
15:35:48 [cpn]
Atsushi: We need to say it's specifically a delta and point to the changes. I don't expect any groups to have concerns
15:36:17 [cpn]
Nigel: Do we need to do this before requesting the CR snapshort, or do at the same time?
15:37:18 [cpn]
Atsushi: CRS publication has several requirements, including getting wide review. Until we show wide review has been completed, the transition request won't be validated
15:37:36 [cpn]
Nigel: So we should do it sooner rather than later
15:38:00 [cpn]
Atsushi: As a delta review, it shouldn't take long
15:38:30 [cpn]
Nigel: To clarify, you said wide review. Do we need to share with industry more widely, or just with our stakeholders?
15:38:49 [cpn]
Atsushi: Horiziontal review groups, but the group wants, we can ask liaisons
15:39:21 [cpn]
Nigel: Don't want to wait too long. I could send a message or write a blog post that's public
15:40:07 [cpn]
Nigel: Anything else to raise on DAPT?
15:40:17 [cpn]
(nothing)
15:40:21 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC 1.3
15:40:30 [nigel]
Subtopic: FPWD publication
15:41:18 [cpn]
Nigel: I sent a CfC two weeks ago. I'm not aware of any objections. I asked for comments in favour of the proposal, and Glenn replied
15:41:32 [cpn]
... I'm in favour, does anyone want to express a view?
15:41:41 [cpn]
Pierre: I fully support it!
15:42:13 [cpn]
Nigel: Any other views?
15:42:15 [cpn]
(nothing)
15:43:19 [nigel]
-> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2025Jun/0013.html CfC to publish IMSC 1.3 Text as a FPWD
15:43:32 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: Publish IMSC Text Profile 1.3 as a First Public Working Draft
15:44:01 [cpn]
Nigel: What happens next?
15:44:20 [cpn]
Atsushi: When that's sent to public-tt, I'll send the transition request
15:44:55 [cpn]
Nigel: I assume we want automatic publication of a new WD? Let's do that
15:45:06 [cpn]
... Any editorial work needed to prepare the draft?
15:45:24 [cpn]
Atsushi: At the moment, with manual publication there are some additional configurations to do
15:45:35 [cpn]
... After that I'll submit a PR for automated publication
15:45:50 [cpn]
... We should use github.io for the ED
15:46:11 [cpn]
Nigel: Any concerns, Pierre?
15:47:01 [cpn]
Pierre: No. It should be pretty unremarkable, not needing testing as it's in TTML2, we've removed a feature. We should move quickly
15:47:21 [cpn]
... We should prepare an implementation report
15:47:53 [cpn]
Nigel: Publish the CRS, file horizontal review request issues, explain the difference between versions
15:48:16 [cpn]
Pierre: I can write text, and if you can file the HR reviews?
15:48:58 [cpn]
... Add a target date to receive feedback. It should be a minor revision, so don't want people to worry it'll be a lot of work
15:49:15 [cpn]
Nigel: Did we decide to allow changes in this version? It's worth flagging to people
15:49:46 [cpn]
Atsushi: PLH sent email to chairs that many WGs use CRS rather than updateable Recs due to the work involved
15:50:29 [cpn]
Nigel: Yes, there's editorial complexity. Some think it's onerous. The level of change for us with superscript/subscript, updatable Rec would have been easier
15:50:36 [cpn]
... It's a tooling issue
15:51:06 [cpn]
... Easier to do that for small increments. Or maybe people need the incrementing version numbers. Would be intersting feedback. IMSC is referenced by lots of other SDOs
15:51:37 [cpn]
Pierre: I'll create a blurb and send to you, Nigel. Let's get it out as soon as possible
15:52:16 [nigel]
Subtopic: Other admin
15:52:19 [cpn]
Nigel: For IMSC 1.3. PR preview is fixed. there's a PR for ??, what needs to be done?
15:52:56 [nigel]
s/??/the w3c ns repo to add the namespace documents
15:53:24 [nigel]
Topic: TPAC 2025 planning
15:53:44 [nigel]
-> Draft schedule for TPAC 2025 https://www.w3.org/2025/06/tpac2025-schedule-20250627.html
15:54:23 [cpn]
Nigel: The draft schedule is broadly OK. It may not allow people interested in all media topics to be there for just the last 2 or first 2 days
15:54:41 [cpn]
... Audio WG has some clashes, if that affects you, let us know
15:54:56 [cpn]
... One of the Audio WG chairs is getting back to the TPAC planners
15:55:06 [cpn]
... let us know if you have other concerns about the schedule
15:55:26 [cpn]
... TTWG's main meetings are on the Tuesday
15:56:55 [cpn]
... MEIG joint meeting on Monday, 4 sessions on Tuesday, Thursday first session is MEIG / APA / TTWG joint meeting. Media WG meets on Friday
15:57:51 [nigel]
Nigel: Could be a breakout session on DataCue and TextTrackCue, which is in WICG at the moment
15:58:02 [nigel]
Chris: We may have a call prior to TPAC to try to move it forwards too.
15:58:15 [nigel]
.. Depending on whether we can have a conversation between now and then, the outcome
15:58:26 [nigel]
.. of that may change what we do at TPAC, or we might want to leave it until TPAC to start
15:58:36 [nigel]
.. the conversation, then I can go back to Rob with that.
15:58:50 [nigel]
.. His interest in narrowly on DataCue, so if there's a broader conversation around MSE and
15:59:05 [nigel]
.. Timed Text Tracks and the whole integration piece then that's a TPAC thing.
15:59:13 [nigel]
.. We started it last year and not much has happened since then.
15:59:30 [nigel]
Nigel: Yes, I think they need separate sessions.
15:59:43 [nigel]
Chris: Yes, the DataCue is about the interface and its relationship to TextTrackCue and
15:59:56 [nigel]
.. Apple's proposal to introduce cue and cue-background attributes on TextTrackCue,
16:00:11 [nigel]
.. then there's a separate conversation about MSE handling of cues in ISOBMFF files.
16:00:19 [nigel]
.. Or other media formats.
16:00:32 [nigel]
Topic: Meeting Close
16:00:59 [nigel]
Nigel: Thanks all, let's adjourn, we are at time. Next meeting in 2 weeks, w3c/ttwg#311
16:02:05 [nigel]
.. [adjourns meeting]
16:02:08 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/03-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:16:10 [nigel]
s/change to nested div/change to #nested-div
16:17:04 [nigel]
s|#38|w3c/dapt-tests#38
16:18:04 [nigel]
s/discussion with Simon/discussion with Simon Hailes who raised the issue
16:18:29 [nigel]
s/gone too var,/gone too far,
16:18:53 [nigel]
s/element corresponding to a text,/element corresponding to a Text,
16:19:24 [nigel]
s/further down, to text objects/further down, to Text objects
16:20:13 [nigel]
s/Horiziontal/Horizontal
16:21:21 [nigel]
s/The draft schedule is broadly OK/The draft schedule is broadly OK for us
16:21:59 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:22:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/03-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:22:59 [nigel]
scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:23:02 [nigel]
zakim, end meeting
16:23:02 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Andreas, Pierre, Atsushi, Chris_Needham
16:23:04 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:23:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/03-tt-minutes.html Zakim
16:23:11 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
16:23:12 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tt
16:23:18 [nigel]
rrsagent, excuse us
16:23:18 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items