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15:58:57 <ktk> meeting:  RDF-Star WG biweekly meeting
15:59:17 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/40c79d60-8147-4da7-8185-c39434216daf/20250703T120000/
15:59:17 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:59:17 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2025/06/26-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:59:17 <agendabot> agenda+ Proposal for next week's discussion
15:59:18 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
15:59:19 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
15:59:22 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue Triage, available at -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
15:59:25 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
15:59:37 <ktk> present+
15:59:55 <gkellogg> present+
16:00:18 <james> present+
16:00:27 <AndyS> present+
16:01:41 <TallTed> s/RDF-Star WG/RDF & SPARQL WG/
16:01:55 <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
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16:02:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/03-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:02:32 <pchampin> present+
16:02:35 <TallTed> present+
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16:02:52 <tl> present+
16:03:02 <ora> present+
16:03:07 <olaf> present+
16:03:09 <ora> chair+
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16:03:41 <pfps> present+
16:03:50 <ktk> Zakim, open issue 1
16:03:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'open issue 1', ktk
16:03:51 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/06/27-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:03:51 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/07/10-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:03:53 <niklasl> present+
16:04:00 <TallTed> Zakim, next item
16:04:01 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2025/06/26-rdf-star-minutes.html --
16:04:03 <Zakim> ... taken up [from agendabot]
16:04:29 <fsasaki> ora: asking for minutes approval
16:04:32 <pfps> minutes look acceptable to me
16:04:58 <ora> PROPOSAL: Approve minutes from 2025-06-19 and 2025-06-26
16:05:03 <ora> +1
16:05:06 <pfps> +1
16:05:06 <pchampin> +1
16:05:08 <fsasaki> +1
16:05:11 <gkellogg> +1
16:05:11 <niklasl> +1
16:05:14 <gtw> +1
16:05:14 <AndyS> +1
16:05:14 <tl> +1
16:05:16 <james> +1
16:05:20 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:05:24 <olaf> +1
16:05:24 <ktk> +1
16:05:43 <Souri> present+
16:05:46 <ora> RESOLVED: Approve minutes from 2025-06-19 and 2025-06-26
16:06:01 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:06:01 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Proposal for next week's discussion -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:06:56 <fsasaki> ora: broad review by horizontal groups could be a topic, or should chairs handle this?
16:07:47 <fsasaki> pchampin: could discuss in group. We should cover groups listed in charter
16:07:59 <gkellogg> q+
16:08:10 <fsasaki> ... might be good to check who can cover what group.
16:08:13 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:08:14 <fsasaki> ora: agree
16:08:31 <fsasaki> gregg: we worked with i18n by tagging issues, that shows up for them
16:08:52 <fsasaki> ... so we can just do the tagging with i18n as label and then follow up with an email to chairs
16:09:17 <pchampin> q+
16:09:20 <fsasaki> ora: is it up to us to ask groups what to look at?
16:09:31 <fsasaki> ... e.g. bidi as a topic for i18n?
16:09:42 <AndyS> q+ to ask if we need formal "its OK" responses from any coords or is silence enough?
16:09:48 <ora> ack pchampin
16:09:49 <fsasaki> gregg: yes, it is worth pointing things out
16:10:11 <fsasaki> ... but review groups should look into what they want to focus
16:10:29 <ora> ack AndyS
16:10:29 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask if we need formal "its OK" responses from any coords or is silence enough?
16:10:29 <fsasaki> pchampin: we need to cover also liaison groups, i.e. outside W3C
16:10:55 <fsasaki> andy: do we need formal responses from groups or is time out of response ok?
16:11:02 <fsasaki> pchampin: there is no formal time out in the process
16:11:17 <fsasaki> ... the team decides on the time out
16:11:40 <fsasaki> ... there is an informal possibility of a time out of groups are not responsive enough
16:11:52 <fsasaki> ... it just has to be reasonable
16:12:12 <fsasaki> andy: is there is a responsibility of groups to send a reply?
16:12:27 <fsasaki> pchampin: yes, we need acks even if there is no issue
16:12:41 <tl> q+
16:12:45 <fsasaki> ora: so we discuss this next weeks and then see who contacts what group
16:12:47 <gkellogg> q+
16:12:50 <ora> ack tl
16:12:59 <fsasaki> tl: discuss issue-169
16:13:13 <pfps> q+
16:13:16 <tl> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169
16:13:17 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169 -> Issue 169 definition of reifiers is non-normative and seems vague (by rat10) [needs discussion]
16:13:23 <fsasaki> ... i.e. "reifiers should have a better definition" issue
16:13:24 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:13:43 <fsasaki> gregg: we still have to discuss the "resolve IRIs" topic
16:14:01 <fsasaki> ... i.e. do all IRI go through IRI resolution algorithm
16:14:12 <fsasaki> .... there are tests that make some assumptions
16:14:16 <ora> ack pfps
16:14:42 <fsasaki> ... they need to take the discussion into account
16:14:56 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:14:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/03-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:15:02 <pchampin> q+
16:15:11 <ora> ack pchampin
16:15:23 <ktk> RRSAgent, make log public
16:15:44 <fsasaki> pfps: want to discuss a certain issue with given time
16:15:52 <fsasaki> ora: 15 to 20 minutes suggested
16:16:00 <pfps> q+
16:16:12 <tl> q+
16:16:15 <fsasaki> andy: asked in the issue for feedback if WG members want to discuss
16:16:24 <ora> ack pfps
16:16:35 <fsasaki> pfps: agree with andy about that approach
16:17:01 <ora> ack tl
16:17:11 <pchampin> s/pfps: want to discuss/pchampin: want to discuss
16:17:35 <fsasaki> tl: I raised the issue last time and got some support, not fighting for labels
16:18:35 <fsasaki> ora: if you want to discuss things tl let us timebox for 15 min and then discuss
16:19:09 <pchampin> q+
16:19:15 <ora> ack pchampin
16:19:29 <fsasaki> pchampin: I participated in the discussion of the issue
16:19:52 <fsasaki> ... there is an issue if langstring without a language tag should be introduced by parsers
16:20:03 <gkellogg> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/37
16:20:04 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/37 -> Issue 37 language strings missing a language tag (by pchampin) [propose closing] [test:needs tests]
16:20:27 <fsasaki> gregg: needs discussion. This will also hit concrete syntaxes.
16:20:39 <fsasaki> ora: objections on discussing this? will also be time boxed.
16:20:52 <fsasaki> pchampin: will prepare summary of the issue
16:21:20 <fsasaki> ... will send a mail to the group before the call
16:21:44 <fsasaki> ora: at this point, the WG will just check of things of the list
16:21:58 <AndyS> q+
16:22:07 <fsasaki> ... so we could spend the rest next week in that way
16:22:07 <ora> ack AndyS
16:22:16 <fsasaki> andy: can we put issue-169 on the agenda?
16:22:50 <niklasl> q+
16:22:59 <ora> ack niklasl
16:23:20 <fsasaki> niklas: thinking about editorial topics, e.g. rdf commons repository
16:23:54 <pfps> q+
16:23:59 <fsasaki> ora: do we have a point in which the alternating meetings do not make sense?
16:24:10 <ora> ack pfps
16:24:13 <ktk> q+
16:24:16 <fsasaki> ... should we dedicate the meetings to checking things of the list?
16:24:48 <ora> ack ktk
16:24:54 <fsasaki> pfps: semantics doc has parts that depend on definitions, unproductive to change those if first parts change
16:25:22 <fsasaki> adrian: in the last weeks we get more admin stuff than real remaining work, I feel
16:25:36 <AndyS> q+
16:25:43 <fsasaki> ... if that is true, how can we go through the remaining topics?
16:25:53 <ora> ack AndyS
16:26:06 <fsasaki> ora: this is about nailing things down
16:26:13 <fsasaki> pfps: yes, and we took a step back on this
16:26:20 <niklasl> q+
16:26:24 <fsasaki> andy: semantics should be earlier on our path
16:26:35 <fsasaki> pfps: others should talk on that
16:26:43 <fsasaki> ... doerte and enrico should talk on that
16:26:59 <ora> ack niklasl
16:27:10 <fsasaki> niklas: dominik is doing the schema doc, I can do primer things, that is not related to the semantics doc
16:27:47 <fsasaki> ... dominik needs to look into the reification topic in relation to semantics then schema doc
16:28:02 <fsasaki> ... we need to have work meetings editing and merging branches
16:28:21 <gkellogg> q+
16:28:24 <fsasaki> ora: editors should get together on these docs
16:28:27 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:28:47 <fsasaki> gregg: prio should be on first round of CR
16:29:06 <fsasaki> ... we should focus on open items, pfps mentioned items in schema and primer
16:29:20 <fsasaki> gregg: we should now focus on what it takes to work on those
16:29:26 <ktk> q+
16:29:32 <ora> ack ktk
16:29:33 <fsasaki> ... and do then the work in git, focus our time in the meetings right
16:30:14 <fsasaki> adrian: should we still need the larger group, try to close in the call also to close pull requests?
16:30:18 <fsasaki> ora: agree
16:30:28 <fsasaki> gregg: not each topic is mature enough
16:30:33 <fsasaki> adrian: agree
16:30:53 <fsasaki> gregg: PRs related to certain docs. Concepts has a number open, requires some focus.
16:31:13 <fsasaki> ora: let us put some time on the agenda about this
16:31:30 <fsasaki> ... this is a good development! We wanted to get here
16:31:47 <fsasaki> gregg: looking for gaps in test coverage is important
16:32:06 <fsasaki> ... many times we do not have a normative statement but still tests are necessary
16:32:20 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:32:20 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:32:33 <pchampin> q+
16:33:11 <fsasaki> ora: my action not done yet
16:33:37 <gkellogg> q+
16:33:38 <fsasaki> niklas: work in progress on the owlification issue
16:33:46 <fsasaki> ora: will then take a look
16:34:07 <ora> ack pchampin
16:34:26 <fsasaki> pchampin: 165 is done, 168 is pending
16:34:55 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:34:58 <tl> niklasl i'd be interested to have a look at your owl-ification work
16:35:21 <fsasaki> gregg: on 168, great idea from niklas to use build process to have to avoid copying files and use referencing instead
16:35:28 <fsasaki> .... will do that after we got CR drafts out
16:36:04 <fsasaki> niklas: trying out that pattern in my fork
16:36:11 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:36:11 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review of pull requests, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:36:27 <gkellogg> q+
16:36:39 <fsasaki> ora: anything we can merge?
16:36:46 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:36:53 <fsasaki> gregg: n-quads and n-triples PRs are close being done
16:37:13 <fsasaki> ... people request changes, please review ones these are done and comment or approve PR
16:37:21 <fsasaki> ora: agree
16:38:10 <pfps> q+
16:38:17 <fsasaki> gregg: sometimes there have been requests for changes, discussion, implementations. If you are asked to look at these, please give it a prio to review and approve if possible.
16:38:18 <fsasaki> ora: agree
16:38:41 <fsasaki> ... how about the minor changes to turtle?
16:38:54 <fsasaki> gregg: there have been great suggestions from ted on these
16:39:11 <fsasaki> ... once we have closure on the docs we move on
16:39:17 <fsasaki> ... we are close on this
16:39:37 <ora> ack pfps
16:39:42 <AndyS> q+
16:39:51 <ora> ack AndyS
16:40:03 <pfps> sorry, on mute
16:40:06 <pfps> q+
16:40:23 <fsasaki> andy: on rdf concepts, does pchampin need input from me?
16:40:31 <fsasaki> pchampin: just more time, will give it high prio
16:40:47 <ora> ack pfps
16:40:50 <fsasaki> andy: if you need anything let me know
16:41:04 <fsasaki> pfps: I have a PR for tests, who should be doing these
16:41:09 <fsasaki> ... is there an editor for tests
16:41:33 <fsasaki> gregg: if you are an editor of a doc, please make a merge of related tests
16:41:45 <fsasaki> pfps: works for me
16:41:47 <pchampin> +1
16:41:50 <niklasl> +1
16:41:53 <fsasaki> andy: is this about 200?
16:41:55 <fsasaki> pfps: 201
16:42:04 <fsasaki> ... just merged
16:42:12 <fsasaki> ... will look at 200
16:42:30 <fsasaki> ... waiting for doerte to get back to me
16:43:03 <fsasaki> ora: others that are not tagged, what to do about them?
16:43:14 <fsasaki> gregg: 79 is created by me
16:43:30 <fsasaki> ... nothing is in manifest that drove the expected behaviour
16:44:00 <fsasaki> ... depended on running a script that gregg wiliams managed
16:44:18 <fsasaki> ... not relating to work that needs to be done soon, we should consider if that is the approach we want to do
16:44:44 <fsasaki> ora: would be ok to check if people want to merge
16:44:52 <fsasaki> andy: agree, worth it for moving things forward
16:45:08 <fsasaki> adrian: 193 and 198 seem to be ok, on concepts doc
16:45:42 <fsasaki> pchampin: will take care about this by end of week
16:46:28 <fsasaki> ora: what about n-quads, no 78
16:46:56 <fsasaki> gregg: once ted is ok, we are good to go
16:47:17 <fsasaki> ... then need to change n-triples, turtle, trig to check if related changes are required
16:47:48 <fsasaki> ... we need to have people review the doc for such related changes, we are ahead of the process for that
16:47:59 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:47:59 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Issue Triage, available at -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:48:41 <fsasaki> going through proposed closing list
16:48:51 <fsasaki> ora: language strings missing topic, already discussed
16:49:02 <fsasaki> ... will discuss next week
16:49:08 <fsasaki> gregg: we can close 161
16:49:27 <pchampin> +1
16:49:37 <fsasaki> ora: ok, let us close
16:50:17 <fsasaki> ora: rdfs 14 entailment topic, how about that?
16:50:37 <fsasaki> andy: the document is saying different than what is intended
16:50:47 <fsasaki> ora: can it be closed?
16:51:52 <fsasaki> ora: not sure what proposed closing means if we do not close issues
16:52:11 <fsasaki> pfps: suggesting to close this
16:52:15 <fsasaki> ... andy seems to agree
16:52:22 <fsasaki> ora: ok, let us close that
16:52:45 <fsasaki> ... 83 is editoral
16:53:13 <fsasaki> ... does this depend on bidi topic?
16:53:19 <fsasaki> pfps: no. it is teds issue
16:54:00 <fsasaki> ora: we discussed that editors should do good judgment and do things
16:54:08 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/83 -> Issue 83 wording defining "RDF Literals" needs clarification (by TallTed) [propose closing] [spec:editorial]
16:54:49 <fsasaki> ted: would like to see input besides me and the editors
16:55:05 <fsasaki> ora: will provide some input
16:55:13 <fsasaki> ted: please others look at this as well
16:55:40 <fsasaki> ora: anything else?
16:56:23 <fsasaki> ... like us to get to a point, if something is proposed to close, whose who disagree should speak up
16:56:41 <fsasaki> adrian: same for PRs, close after 2 weeks without response
16:56:45 <fsasaki> ora: agree
16:57:19 <fsasaki> ... tomorrow US has public holiday
16:57:32 <fsasaki> andy: will cancel sparql task force meeting tomorrow
16:57:48 <fsasaki> ... want to have editors for next discussion
16:57:52 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:57:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/03-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
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16:59:53 <ktk> s/editoral/editorial/
17:00:09 <ktk> s/check of/check off/
17:00:13 <pchampin> i|79 is created by me|subtopic: w3c/rdf-tests#79
17:00:40 <pchampin> i|what about n-quads, no 78|w3c/rdf-n-quads#78
17:01:17 <pchampin> s|w3c/rdf-n-quads#78|subtopic: w3c/rdf-n-quads#78
17:01:21 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:01:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/03-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:02:41 <pchampin> i|rdfs 14 entailment topic|subtopic: w3c/rdf-semantics#126
17:03:12 <pchampin> s| … 83 is editorial|ora: 83 is editorial
17:03:48 <pchampin> i|83 is editorial|subtopic: w3c/rdf-semantics#83
17:04:51 <pchampin> i|anything else?|topic: AOB
17:04:54 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:04:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/03-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
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