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12:01:13 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:01:30 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2025-07-03: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Jul/0001.html
12:01:31 <ivan> Chair: wendy
12:01:31 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:01:31 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Jul/0001.html
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13:04:23 <wendyreid> Topic: PR 2744 - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2744
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13:04:46 <duga> wendyreid: We discussed this a little last week, dropping the draft edupub terms
13:05:02 <ivan> q+
13:05:07 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:05:08 <duga> ... This is from the note, I think we agreed to remove things that are deprecated
13:05:23 <mgarrish> q+
13:05:33 <duga> ivan: We did not decide that on this specifically
13:05:51 <duga> ... should we start on edupub first, then move on to deprected?
13:06:20 <duga> mgarrish: Sure. For edupub we created a new vocab, then started to move them back to the main spec
13:06:42 <duga> ... So they are stuck in draft status, and people keep thinking we are still working on them
13:07:00 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:07:09 <ivan> present+ hadrien
13:07:17 <duga> ... We will just remove the draft terms, and leave epubcheck alone, so this change just clarifies things
13:08:14 <duga> ivan: There was a separate list of bugs on FL raised by Hadrien which also raised the question of what deprecated means
13:08:45 <duga> ... Currently the charter says "deprecated stuff will be removed", but we didn't say when
13:09:04 <duga> ... And this PR does at least move the  deprecated stuff to the end
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13:09:11 <duga> wendyreid: Issues with merging?
13:09:14 <ivan> present+ George
13:09:16 <Hadrien> present+
13:09:18 <George> present+
13:09:54 <duga> ... Ok, no objections, we will merge it
13:10:35 <sue-neu> q+
13:10:40 <ivan> topic: html survey
13:11:01 <ivan> q+
13:11:12 <duga> ... We sent out the survey and already have a lot of responses
13:11:16 <sue-neu> q-
13:11:20 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:11:36 <duga> ivan: I scanned through them, there is one aspect that often comes up
13:11:59 <duga> ... There is confusion of what XHTML really means
13:12:32 <duga> ... We mean what is in the HTML spec, not the older version of XHTML
13:12:59 <duga> ... we have a bunch of responses that says HTML is governed by the big browsers, etc
13:13:05 <Hadrien> q+
13:13:27 <duga> ... But people don't seem to notice we moved in 3.0 from XHTML 1.1 to the living HTML standard
13:13:29 <George> q+
13:13:44 <duga> ... Maybe we can make that more clear in the spec
13:14:01 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:14:12 <mgarrish> q+
13:14:27 <duga> Hadrien: In 3.0 we decided we couldn't fork the web
13:14:47 <duga> ... The people working on it knew this was a big change, but thought it was a good thing
13:14:55 <gpellegrino> q+
13:15:00 <gpellegrino> q-
13:15:01 <ivan> q+
13:15:12 <duga> ... So it is weird people lost that memo, because it was very important and positive
13:15:35 <sue-neu> q+
13:15:41 <wendyreid> q+
13:15:42 <duga> ... 3.0 was all about  not making our own content format
13:15:53 <wendyreid> ack George
13:16:00 <duga> ... that was a good 15 years ago, and we certainly knew about it back then
13:16:31 <duga> George: When I am in VSCode and I have XHTML extensions enabled, is that HTML or the older XHTML?
13:16:59 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:17:48 <duga> mgarrish: What exactly are they upset about? We didn't go with WhatWG, we adopted W3C specs, but have people missed our gradual alignment with WhatWG?
13:18:28 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:18:40 <duga> ... There are a lot of benefits to keep our spec fluid and adapting to HTML. Are people just upset because it is related to browsers?
13:19:19 <duga> ivan: WhatWG only came up in one case. The main issue was the complexity of the spec and html parsing
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13:19:48 <mgarrish> q+
13:19:58 <duga> ... One answer to Hadrien is that we are talking about standards buffs. But these comments come from people who aren't.
13:20:18 <duga> ... so I am wondering if there is something we can do to make this more explicit
13:20:41 <duga> ... So for instance XHTML is a name only we use
13:20:57 <duga> q+
13:21:07 <wendyreid> ack sue-neu
13:21:31 <duga> sue-neu: Hadrien said, correctly, we don't want to fork the web
13:21:57 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:22:04 <duga> ... There are some RSes that would be very happy to fork the web, if it made their process easier or gave them an advantage
13:22:12 <duga> ... and we can't control that
13:22:30 <Hadrien> q+
13:22:36 <duga> wendyreid: sue-neu you aren't wrong, but it has already happened
13:22:59 <duga> ... I don't think we need to worry too much about the lack of understanding on these terms
13:23:37 <duga> ... we have a broad range of responses, but they are overall very positive
13:24:05 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:24:19 <duga> ... There was also comments about updating, which today is more of a user behavior issue
13:24:40 <duga> ... Some just don't want to touch their toolchains
13:25:20 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:25:26 <duga> ... So just to bring it back to overall comments, everything has been pretty positive
13:25:54 <duga> mgarrish: We aren't the only ones with the confusion issue
13:26:17 <duga> ... I think we should leave it alone until we move to HTML
13:26:45 <duga> ... but back to what ivan said, why don't we just update the non-normative sections and explain things?
13:26:59 <duga> ... Informative seems ok, let's just do it
13:27:02 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:27:05 <wendyreid> scribe+
13:27:25 <Hadrien> q-
13:27:37 <wendyreid> duga: Just to add on, Ivan you said "people knew about this but only the spec buffs", I don't think there's anything we can do to communicate outside the buffs
13:28:03 <wendyreid> ... I forget exactly how we state our relationship, but the people we're trying to inform don't read the specs
13:28:15 <wendyreid> ... it's not even the XML serialization, it's the XML syntax
13:28:23 <wendyreid> ... it's never going to make sense to anyone
13:28:31 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
13:28:57 <duga> AvneeshSingh: Do we see a lot of responses from Europe?
13:28:58 <ivan> q+
13:29:17 <duga> ... holiday just started there, so maybe the results are skewed
13:29:22 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:29:33 <duga> ivan: I don't know, and the worst answer is we won't know
13:29:43 <duga> ... so all I know is the email address
13:30:10 <duga> ... we had 2 or 3 in Japanese, but we need those translated, but at least we do have responses from them
13:30:28 <duga> ... but mostly we don't know where they are from
13:31:16 <gpellegrino> q+
13:31:21 <LaurentLM> q+
13:31:23 <duga> wendyreid: I lost all my email addresses when I switched jobs, so I can't forward to everyone who should get it
13:31:25 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:31:35 <duga> ... so I haven't sent it directly to any European orgs
13:32:15 <duga> gpellegrino: We are going to send it on, we have discussed in our monthly meetings, they are a lttle afraid, but we will talk to them some more
13:32:31 <duga> ... Have we talked to Amazon? Will it be disruptive for them?
13:32:54 <duga> wendyreid: They are on our mailing list, but I don't have a good Kindle contact
13:33:10 <duga> George: DAISY has contacts with accessibility people
13:33:12 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:33:19 <duga> wendyreid: Maybe they are a good place to start
13:33:50 <duga> LaurentLM: We will send an email to our list of a hundred orgs.
13:34:41 <duga> ... We will send an explanation with it, as we are already seeing people being confused
13:35:51 <LaurentLM> ack LaurentLM
13:36:03 <duga> wendyreid: Maybe we should make clear this opens up the next step in epub development
13:36:14 <wendyreid> Topic: Overview of the Digital Publishing Summit
13:36:36 <duga> LaurentLM: The publishing summit was in Dublin, same place as the Book of Kells is
13:37:02 <ivan> s/topic: html survey/topic: HTML Survey/
13:37:22 <duga> ... it's a very technical summit, it had a lot of participation
13:37:48 <duga> ... there were two main drivers - EAA and AI
13:38:14 <duga> ... Vital source talked about interactive ebooks for students
13:39:12 <duga> ... Colibrio talked about an EPUB CFI library that is open source
13:39:39 <duga> ... we have seen a lot about metadata extraction tools
13:40:18 <duga> ... there is a tool for this, which is helping with A11y metadata
13:40:53 <duga> ... We heard from Hachette, there is a new internal format for all their publications types
13:41:40 <duga> ... there were also publication tools presented,  a couple of new tools were presented including wysiwig editing of A11y
13:42:11 <duga> ... Also some presentations about the importance of ToC in audiobooks
13:42:25 <duga> ... anyone else with updates?
13:42:31 <wendyreid> q?
13:43:09 <duga> Hadrien: We heard other people doing the same as Hachette, some technical, some related to UX
13:43:36 <ivan> q+
13:43:47 <duga> wendyreid: We hear that a lot of people start with HTML and back port to XHTML
13:44:02 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:44:27 <duga> ivan: We concentrate on epub, but web publications is also on our charter
13:44:51 <gpellegrino> q+
13:44:55 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:45:03 <duga> ... should we reach out to people and see if that needs to be revived?
13:45:34 <duga> gpellegrino: These are good B2B formats, but not B2C
13:45:51 <duga> ... I see this for web publications and epub as well
13:46:08 <Hadrien> q+
13:46:12 <duga> ... maybe discussing the use of this for b2b may be interesting
13:46:12 <wendyreid> ack Ha
13:46:35 <duga> Hadrien: We see they are not using the w3c spec, they are using the readium version.
13:47:09 <duga> ... readium version is older, but also there is better tooling, e.g. a tool to take EPUB and produce a web publication from it
13:47:21 <LaurentLM> q+
13:47:35 <duga> ... We don't really push this, but on their own they have come to it
13:48:07 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:48:14 <duga> ... so if we want to tackle that question, then we need to decide on which serialization to use. It might be easier to move the spec than the users
13:48:34 <duga> LaurentLM: Also index.html is important to web publications
13:49:10 <duga> ... they want to use it for b2b, and some b2c, they don't want to deal with a single xml file
13:49:27 <LaurentLM> q-
13:49:33 <duga> ... so yes, if we go that path we should converge the specs
13:49:58 <duga> wendyreid: We had this discussion before, but are we really that far apart?
13:50:04 <duga> ... they are nearly the same
13:50:17 <Hadrien> q+
13:50:18 <duga> LaurentLM: They are similar, I have a table somewhere
13:50:20 <duga> q+
13:50:33 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:50:39 <ivan> q+
13:50:45 <duga> Hadrien: I think it is possible to overcome them
13:51:09 <duga> ... there was a pressure for xml, but people don't really want to use it
13:51:43 <duga> ... the current spec is where it is due to arguments like this, but the industry has spoken and they want a single json file
13:52:05 <duga> ... it is also more powerful as it can support images, text, etc
13:52:24 <duga> ... There are some things that it is hard to argue why they are there
13:52:34 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:53:05 <wendyreid> duga: I was just going to say, there's a reasonably good example of a spec following reality in HTML, which has been relatively successful in speccing reality instead of the perfect spec
13:53:20 <wendyreid> ... it doesn't seem like a bad idea to revisit pub manifest and align it with reality
13:53:28 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:54:00 <duga> ivan: I may be misremembering that we pulled web publications from the manifest
13:54:36 <duga> ... The maifest is just a JSON thing, it doesn't mention xml, so I am not sure what we are talking about
13:54:45 <duga> wendyreid: I am checking, I don't recall
13:54:56 <duga> ... audiobooks has the requirements
13:55:13 <duga> mgarrish: we left it with a pointer to the manifest
13:55:27 <duga> ... because we couldn't resolve it
13:55:45 <duga> ivan: We should discuss later
13:55:57 <Hadrien> q+
13:56:04 <duga> mgarrish: ToC is an easy change
13:56:14 <duga> wendyreid: We could make it an either or
13:56:19 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:56:24 <duga> ... Like NCX and Nav in epub
13:56:58 <duga> Hadrien: Another thing that is different, the thoughts around pub manifest is that it applies to pubs natively on the web and we put something on top
13:57:23 <duga> ... But in reality that isn't what we see. it is people who want something like epub that is more b2b focused
13:57:54 <duga> ... The reason that the readium version is doing well is due to the easy conversions between epub
13:58:36 <duga> wendyreid: This sounds interesting, we need to do some research. But specing reality seems doable
13:59:28 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:59:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/03-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
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