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13:59:58 <shiestyle> zakim, start the meeting
13:59:58 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:00:00 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), shiestyle
14:00:21 <shiestyle> rrsagent, make log public
14:00:31 <shiestyle> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:00:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/03-pm-dc-minutes.html shiestyle
14:00:46 <shiestyle> Meeting: Digital Comics TF
14:00:54 <shiestyle> Chair: Shinya Takami, Hadrien Gardeur
14:04:33 <toshiakikoike> toshiakikoike has joined #pm-dc
14:04:56 <shiestyle> present+
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14:05:10 <toshiakikoike> present+
14:05:11 <MasakazuKitahara> MasakazuKitahara has joined #pm-dc
14:05:20 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
14:05:27 <duga7> present+
14:05:44 <gautierchomel> present+
14:09:00 <shiestyle> Topic: Discussion: Digital Comic issues
14:09:25 <Hadrien> present+
14:10:05 <duga7> scribe+
14:10:30 <duga7> shiestyle: We have some issues from Hadrien
14:10:38 <duga7> Hadrien: yes, let go over them
14:11:03 <duga7> ... in the layout section, there are a lot of properties handling layout
14:11:21 <duga7> ... For the layout overrides we can say they are flowing or pre-paginated
14:11:42 <duga7> ... it is possible to override on a per-resource manner
14:12:00 <duga7> ... I am not sure if it is supported or if it is a good use case
14:12:06 <duga7> q+
14:12:15 <shiestyle> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2749
14:12:36 <duga7> ... it's one thing we added that doesn't make sense. And particularly with scrolled content it can be very confusing
14:12:58 <duga7> ... the only use case is very education focused uses, for example at Hachette
14:13:22 <duga7> ... it is very specialized, so I don't think we should allow it
14:13:32 <shiestyle> ack duga7
14:13:32 <duga7> ... especially when we have scrolled
14:13:44 <shiestyle> ack duga
14:15:08 <shiestyle> present+ LaurentLM
14:15:41 <shiestyle> present+ gautierchomel
14:16:09 <duga7> duga: I think it does actually have some use, but it isn't really supported so we may need to deprecate
14:16:29 <shiestyle> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2750
14:16:52 <duga7> Hadrien: It's been there for a long time, we need to adapt to reality
14:17:06 <duga7> Hadrien: next issue, mix of scrolled and paged
14:17:33 <duga7> ... reflow really isn't about publsher control, it should be up to users
14:17:56 <duga7> ... I am worried about removing from the spine, due to the previous comics implementation from Japan
14:18:13 <Hadrien> q?
14:18:19 <duga7> ... I don't think publishers should control this, and most RSes don't support this
14:18:25 <shiestyle> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2751
14:18:49 <duga7> ... next one is for FL, and it is for orientation
14:18:59 <duga7> ... The content author shouldn't have a say here
14:19:11 <duga7> ... and it is even an a11y issue
14:19:24 <duga7> ... So it is problematic from an EAA perspective
14:20:05 <duga7> ... there seems to be a lot of support to deprecate
14:20:24 <Hadrien> q?
14:20:25 <duga7> ... it seems misguided and shouldn't be there
14:20:36 <shiestyle> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2753
14:21:05 <duga7> ... next, when should spreads be used or not. You can do it both at the spine and item levels
14:21:48 <duga7> ... it is usually misused.
14:22:20 <duga7> ... I think sometimes people left spread-none or spread-both, and the pub just left it there
14:22:33 <duga7> ... And it varies by device
14:23:17 <duga7> ... there was one comment about spread-none being correctly used, but spread placement is a good replacement for it
14:23:27 <shiestyle> q+
14:23:37 <duga7> ... You can't do that for the entire spine, but it can be put on every spine item
14:23:53 <duga7> ... and this is usually misused. And comics apps usually let you decide
14:24:23 <duga7> ... I think it should all be deprecated
14:24:25 <duga7> q+
14:24:47 <shiestyle> ack me
14:24:49 <duga7> ... So even if we support just none, it will still have some bad impacts on titles
14:25:07 <duga7> shiestyle: In Japan we use both none and center
14:25:29 <duga7> Hadrien: Well you can use spread placement
14:25:56 <duga7> q-
14:26:33 <shiestyle> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2754
14:26:53 <duga7> Hadrien: so next it is using flow as metadata (not on spine items)
14:27:09 <shiestyle> q+
14:27:41 <duga7> ... flow as metadata we might want to deprecate everything except continuous at the top level
14:27:57 <duga7> ... just for the existing comics impl
14:28:11 <shiestyle> ack me
14:28:15 <duga7> ... Otherwise I would say we should deprecate it all
14:28:37 <duga7> shiestyle: We just really need scrolled-continuous
14:28:51 <duga7> ... at least for a while
14:28:59 <duga7> Hadrien: And yes, I acknowledge that
14:29:18 <duga7> ... it all kind of depends on what deprecated means
14:29:24 <Hadrien> q?
14:29:32 <shiestyle> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2755
14:29:45 <duga7> ... and the last one I brought up at TPAC last year
14:30:08 <duga7> ... Everyone either includes spread placement all the time, or they never include it at all
14:30:35 <duga7> ... but the spec says you shouldn't use it unless it is meaningful (e.g. a true spread)
14:30:52 <shiestyle> q+
14:31:39 <duga7> ... there are two groups, one wants placement exactly where it should be, the other is following Apple Books (cover is center, then starts left-right alternation)
14:32:16 <duga7> ... true spread is a red herring, since you can't tell from the metadata
14:32:35 <shiestyle> ack me
14:32:42 <duga7> ... we may need to realign with reality
14:33:17 <duga7> shiestyle: We can't remove those, we can't really deprecate
14:33:40 <duga7> Hadrien: This is about dropping the concept of true spread, and specifying how the first item is displayed
14:34:03 <duga7> ... so we shouldn't deprecate, we just need to clarify
14:34:16 <duga7> ... but this is clearly used and important
14:34:26 <LaurentLM> q+
14:34:33 <shiestyle> ack LaurentLM
14:35:19 <duga7> LaurentLM: So all the proposals for deprecation are all linked to allowing the publisher to have power, and we have discovered that the user has control
14:35:25 <duga7> q+
14:35:34 <shiestyle> ack duga
14:35:36 <LaurentLM> q-
14:37:35 <duga7> duga: A lot  of these were hints, not meant to be required
14:38:08 <duga7> Hadrien: The WG needs to discuss these, some may need to wait for TPAC
14:38:17 <duga7> ... and a lot will depend on what deprecation means
14:38:44 <duga7> ... overall these changes will make comics simpler
14:39:24 <shiestyle> Topic: Discussion: Optional specs for scrolled comics
14:39:29 <duga7> shiestyle: let's move on to the next topic
14:40:13 <duga7> ... scroll direction is one, but direction probably isn't needed for scrolled
14:40:26 <duga7> ... since it is just up and down
14:40:46 <duga7> Hadrien: We plan to work on a PR for scrolled
14:40:57 <duga7> ... initial PR won't include optional items
14:41:11 <duga7> ... it will just have layout scrolled, and only at the spine level
14:41:28 <duga7> ... Once that is done we should decide if there is anything else we need
14:41:41 <duga7> ... for instance, support for multiple episodes
14:42:10 <duga7> ... In Japan it is largely a sold per episode, but outside it may be easier to sell content as bundles of episodes
14:42:13 <shiestyle> q+
14:42:57 <duga7> ... If we want multiple episodes in one comic, do we need a way to say this is the end of the current scroll, or the end of the current episode?
14:43:15 <duga7> ... I had proposed a way of specifying the end of scroll
14:43:28 <duga7> ... but you could also do it with ARIA that indicates episode
14:43:43 <duga7> ... and then reading systems could decide episode nav
14:44:09 <shiestyle> q-
14:44:13 <duga7> ... typically continuous scroll is inside an episode only, then there is UI to skip to the next one
14:45:33 <duga7> shiestyle: It depends on the UI of reading systems how to advance, we shoulddiscuss with RS implementers
14:46:08 <duga7> Hadrien: The more I think about it, the less I like rendering control and the more I prefer semantics to provide the RS useful information
14:46:16 <duga7> ... then the UI is up to the RS
14:46:59 <duga7> shiestyle: As a next step, will you have an issue or PR to propose this?
14:47:25 <duga7> Hadrien: I can open an issue, and I would like to add the concepts of season and chapter, and maybe volume
14:48:08 <duga7> ... sometimes you have multiple volumes with multiple issues
14:48:34 <duga7> ... so I would like to have these added to aria, and I can summarize in an issue
14:48:48 <duga7> ... this would also help with maga
14:48:54 <duga7> s/maga/manga/
14:49:48 <duga7> Hadrien: I agree about directions. There are some experimental ones that go in different directions
14:50:10 <duga7> ... so if we are pragmatic we can assume up/down only
14:50:22 <duga7> LaurentLM: I think it can wait, as you say it is experimental
14:50:36 <duga7> Hadrien: I am happy to add the semantics
14:51:06 <duga7> ... if we get quick agreement on the semantics we could do a PR with semantics and scrolled
14:52:25 <duga7> duga7: I prefer more smaller PRs
14:52:33 <shiestyle> Topic: Agenda for next time
14:52:52 <duga7> Hadrien: We are done with the agenda for today, next time I would like to see images in spine as our next topic
14:53:15 <duga7> ... this would be very good for comics and make them easier to create
14:53:31 <shiestyle> Topic: AOB
14:53:51 <duga7> shiestyle: Next call in two weeks
14:54:33 <duga7> Hadrien: do we continue during the holidays? Do we skip anything?
14:54:44 <duga7> shiestyle: Let's discuss on the mailing list
14:56:10 <shiestyle> zakim, end the meeting
14:56:10 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been shiestyle, toshiakikoike, MasakazuKitahara, duga, gautierchomel, Hadrien, LaurentLM
14:56:10 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:56:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/03-pm-dc-minutes.html Zakim
14:56:19 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, shiestyle; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
14:56:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pm-dc
14:56:41 <shiestyle> rrsagent, make minutes
14:56:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/03-pm-dc-minutes.html shiestyle
14:56:56 <shiestyle> rrsagent, publish minutes
14:56:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/03-pm-dc-minutes.html shiestyle
14:57:16 <ivan> shiestyle, all the three commands were identical :-)
14:57:35 <ivan> I will clean them up and put it on github, if you want
14:58:05 <shiestyle> Oops!
14:58:29 <ivan> no problems, you just ran the same thing three times :-)
14:59:00 <shiestyle> Thanks, but I think it's good enough as a draft.
14:59:12 <ivan> yep
14:59:33 <ivan> I just look through to be on the safe side and will publish it then
15:06:27 <shiestyle> Thank you!
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