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13:00:32 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/07/02-matf-irc
13:00:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:00:33 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
13:00:35 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF July 2, 2025
13:00:36 <Zakim> got it, JJ
13:00:44 <JJ> Meeting: MATF July 2, 2025
13:00:55 <JJ> agenda+ Project planning
13:01:00 <JJ> agenda+ Change of context definition
13:01:08 <JJ> agenda+ User interface component definition
13:01:10 <JJ> chair+
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13:02:42 <Joe_Humbert> present+
13:03:03 <quintinb> scribe quintinb
13:03:11 <JJ> scribe: quintinb
13:03:14 <quintinb> scribe: quintinb
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13:03:45 <julianmka> present+
13:03:50 <rachaely> present+
13:03:57 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:03:57 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Project planning -- taken up [from JJ]
13:04:12 <quintinb> Thanks Joe_Humbert for cover for JJ while he was honeymooning!
13:04:37 <quintinb> You should have accessd to https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/147
13:05:08 <rachaely> rachaely has joined #matf
13:05:22 <quintinb> There are 169 new sub issues, each with a parent issue
13:06:50 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:06:58 <Jamie> present+
13:07:38 <quintinb> Thanks Tania and Megan for setting up the MATF board
13:09:46 <julianmka> This looks great!
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13:10:24 <Tanya> present+
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13:14:45 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:14:45 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Change of context definition -- taken up [from JJ]
13:17:32 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/69
13:19:38 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:20:17 <quintinb> JJ perhaps we need to focus on native mobile apps and get to hybrid later?
13:20:24 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:20:56 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert We did an informal poll, perhaps a larger discussion. If it's web content, doesn't WCAG apply directly?
13:21:09 <hdv> present+
13:21:38 <quintinb> +1
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13:25:14 <JJ> q?
13:25:20 <Jamie> +1 to Joe_Humbert
13:25:21 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert maybe we can add to a preamble that web pages on mobile (Quintin asks: rendered in a browser?) must refer to WCAG
13:25:22 <Jamie> q+
13:26:29 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:27:13 <Joe_Humbert> quintinb not just rendered in a browser because "webviews" aren't always are considered "browsers" particularly when they have no interface
13:27:35 <Tanya> q+
13:28:38 <quintinb> Jamie I am supporting the concept Joe_Humbert brought up. This iteration needs to fill the gaps of mobile apps. If people ask about web apps, this isn't the doc for them. We need to clarify what is not yet defined. They're both important but perhaps a phased approach
13:28:45 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:28:45 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert yeah that is my concern
13:28:51 <Jamie> thanks quintinb
13:28:55 <JJ> ack Tanya
13:30:43 <quintinb> Tanya We need to decide on a format to make it clear for ourselves and the readers of the draft. I did not understand how the abstract relate to how we apply our guidance. The structure of the document needs to be clarified and make a definition of done. \
13:31:49 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:32:34 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert the reason for the separation for mobile vs web is that developers state they are only in control of the native code.
13:33:16 <pauljadam> web views might be a page that is shared among multiple apps like the terms of service page but you should be able to access that HTML code and make it accessible as well
13:34:12 <pauljadam> It's harder for a tester to know what is web view or native view.
13:34:23 <quintinb> "I chose a framework without any access to the internals" is not an excuse for inaccessibility
13:35:34 <quintinb> We should focus on "how a mobile app is accessible" - developers need to fix for that
13:35:34 <JJ> q?
13:36:58 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:36:58 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- User interface component definition -- taken up [from JJ]
13:37:04 <Joe_Humbert> to be clear, I'm not advocating for inaccessibility, just advocating for our document to not be unwieldy in scope for developers to consume
13:37:09 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/68
13:37:46 <quintinb> Oh I'm 1000% with you Joe_Humbert - I know it's not you
13:38:23 <quintinb> Apologies if I seem extreme, I can be quite nice sometimes
13:40:06 <JJ> q?
13:40:07 <hdv> q+
13:40:15 <JJ> ack hdv
13:41:43 <quintinb> hdv One thing to add - component is also be redefined. There is talk about creating a definition for component and interactive element. These are still in flux. Just like with views. This is expected to last a while. User interface component is a little more specific - some web developers will consider non-interactive components as components such
13:41:43 <quintinb> as headings. User interface component is more specific
13:41:58 <Joe_Humbert> +1 to alan's definition as a starting point
13:42:30 <JJ> https://accessibilite.public.lu/en/raam1.1/glossaire.html#user-interface-component
13:43:46 <julianmka> q+
13:44:19 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:45:18 <quintinb> julianmka I think the note does a really nice job of showing how you can have something without perfect fidelity between mobile and web but still have an accessible experience. We should crib (I think that was the word?) this note
13:46:40 <pauljadam> SwiftUI has a checkbox? I've only seen a Toggle.
13:46:41 <quintinb> Thanks julianmka - It's a bit close to another word and I would be careful about writing that one down - and verbal b's and p's are difficult to distinguish sometimes
13:47:11 <JJ> https://developer.apple.com/documentation/swiftui/checkboxtogglestyle
13:47:21 <quintinb> Never seen a checkbox or radio button in native SwiftUI pauljadam!
13:47:29 <JJ> or is that only macOS
13:47:40 <Tanya> q+
13:47:40 <pauljadam> yeah macOS only now for native checkbox that is the square
13:47:40 <quintinb> Yeah mobile
13:48:39 <JJ> ack Tanya
13:48:41 <pauljadam> Apple only has Picker as the alternative to radio buttons https://github.com/cvs-health/ios-swiftui-accessibility-techniques/blob/main/iOSswiftUIa11yTechniques/Documentation/RadioButtons.md
13:49:01 <pauljadam> Checkboxes should be made out of Toggle https://github.com/cvs-health/ios-swiftui-accessibility-techniques/blob/main/iOSswiftUIa11yTechniques/Documentation/Checkboxes.md
13:49:28 <quintinb> Tanya are we maybe going to deep - if we are giving examples or specifics we need to decide if we're at that place right now. Where is the line?
13:49:40 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:50:28 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:51:12 <Tanya> +1 to Joe_Humbert
13:51:53 <quintinb> Sorry Joe_Humbert I missed that
13:52:47 <quintinb> hdv Nothing to add
13:53:38 <Joe_Humbert> maybe we make Notes generic and have one section that discusses specific "gotchas" with different OSes. That way instead of having to change lots of Notes, we just update one section.  This might be better in understanding documents
13:53:54 <quintinb> ooh yeah +1 to that Joe_Humbert
13:54:09 <quintinb> I love not saying "Mobile"
13:55:18 <Joe_Humbert> +1 to Tanya about updating the abstract to make our process clear
13:57:26 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
13:57:26 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, julianmka, rachaely, Jamie, Tanya, hdv
13:57:36 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
13:57:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/02-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:00:05 <JJ> regrets+ JonGibbins
14:00:15 <JJ> regrets+ TimGravemaker
14:00:23 <JJ> regrets+ GleidsonRamos
14:00:35 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:00:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/02-matf-minutes.html JJ