18:03:46 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:03:50 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/07/01-aria-apg-irc 18:03:50 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:03:51 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:03:56 present+ jugglinmike 18:03:58 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:04:00 present+ jongund 18:04:03 present+ Adam_Page 18:04:03 present+ Jemma 18:05:14 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/July-1%2C-2025-Agenda 18:05:37 present+ jongund 18:05:51 Topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:06:04 Jem: Any requests for change to agenda? 18:06:09 present+ Jem 18:06:30 howard-e has joined #aria-apg 18:06:33 present+ 18:07:40 jongund: I could speak to an issue that was assigned to me a few weeks ago, issue 3289 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3289 18:08:51 jongund: I don't think it's a bug. Rather, it's a feature 18:08:56 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:09:42 present+ CurtBellew 18:10:04 Matt_King: We can resolve that asynchronously, jongund. I'll participate 18:10:39 Jem: Hearing no other requests for changes to the agenda, we'll keep the agenda as planned 18:10:46 Jem: Next meeting: July 8 18:10:54 Jem: No meeting July 15 18:11:51 Topic: Publication planning 18:12:06 Matt_King: I changed this to next Wednesday so we can use next Tuesday's meeting to land some things 18:12:17 Matt_King: that includes the "expandable region" work 18:12:54 howard-e: I can help with the publication on Wednesday the ninth. I'll prepare it on Tuesday so it's ready for the W3C on Wednesday 18:13:08 Matt_King: Hopefully there are no problems with them about that change 18:13:30 jongund: Has the skipTo.js change been merged? 18:13:48 Matt_King: No, that's still in a pull request. I didn't add it to the milestone, but I can revisit it 18:14:11 Matt_King: It might be too late to add it to today's agenda, though 18:14:14 jongund: Alright 18:15:02 Matt_King: I need to add 3251 to the milestone 18:15:10 Topic: PR 3251 - New example demonstrating expandable cards/regions 18:15:16 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3251 18:15:45 Matt_King: This is what we've been calling the "expandable region" or the "disclosure card" 18:15:55 Matt_King: I'm going to finish my review of the editorial content this afternoon 18:16:03 Matt_King: I know jongund did a code review 18:16:18 Adam_Page: I've pushed changes for all the feedback I've received so far 18:16:23 present+ 18:16:45 Matt_King: jongund, do you have the time to review again? 18:16:47 jongund: Sure 18:16:59 Matt_King: Awesome. I'll request another review from you 18:17:47 howard-e: I reviewed the tests and some of the code changes. I had no issues 18:18:04 Matt_King: we had siri and CurtBellew on this one, as well 18:18:28 Jem: siri isn't here today, but CurtBellew is here 18:18:47 Matt_King: as I recall, CurtBellew was going to review the design and functionality 18:18:53 CurtBellew: Yes, I'll do that today 18:19:08 Matt_King: great, that will help today 18:19:34 Adam_Page: I made some minor tweaks to the CSS and to the documentation 18:20:40 Jem: Usually, when we have an example with links, we have a blank page as a placeholder 18:22:57 Matt_King: The link should do something 18:23:09 Matt_King: We decided that we weren't going to create a bunch of "dummy" pages 18:23:48 Matt_King: What do the links in the Tree Grid do? 18:23:54 Jem: They are "mailto:" links 18:24:11 Matt_King: There are some links in some of the dialogs. Those might open up a JavaScript alert 18:24:18 Adam_Page: What does the print button do? 18:24:41 Jem: It opens a modal dialog 18:26:30 Matt_King: The probably doesn't impact the tests because we're not testing the keyboard functionality of buttons or links. Only the "expand/collapse" functionality 18:27:00 Matt_King: We should have a regression test for each keyboard command that's documented 18:27:04 Adam_Page: Yes, we have that 18:28:09 Adam_Page: In the CSS, I'm using an experimental feature called "interpolate size". It's purely cosmetic. It is supported by Chrome and Edge, and Firefox may support it behind a flag. 18:28:29 Matt_King: Does it have a bad side effect if it's not supported? 18:28:41 Adam_Page: No. It is still functional without it 18:29:00 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3251#discussion_r2155596977 18:30:16 Jem: If it doesn't have any bad impact when unsupported, I think we can keep it 18:30:21 Adam_Page: That sounds fine to me 18:30:27 Matt_King: I'm aligned with it as well 18:30:36 howard-e: I'm also fine with it (and I think I said as much in my review) 18:31:02 https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/practices/read-me-first/ 18:31:15 howard-e: I wonder if the "read this first" statement covers things like this. In the future, it could enhance the experience if an experimental feature is used, but it could be detrimental if absent 18:31:20 present+ Matt_King 18:31:44 Jem: I'm sharing the "read this first" page. There, we have a section about "browser and assistive technology support" 18:32:58 Matt_King: as a code guide practice, I don't know if this is really experimental because it is already spec'd and being implemented. If we had doubt about the feature being broadly supported or if it could have a negative impact on the accessible experience 18:33:13 Adam_Page: For what it's worth, I gated this behind a "prefers reduced motion" media query 18:33:17 Matt_King: Great 18:38:08 Topic: PR 3302: simple editorial PR needs review 18:38:13 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3302 18:38:33 Matt_King: I only removed a colon. This should be fast. I assigned Jem 18:38:40 Jem: Okay, I'll do it! 18:38:53 Topic: Issue 2855: Select only combobox not working on Android 18:39:00 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2855 18:39:20 Matt_King: A long time ago, when we put the select-only combobox out there, people noticed that it wasn't working well on Android 18:39:27 Matt_King: Jem validated the bug 18:39:42 Matt_King: We didn't know if it was an APG problem or a TalkBack problem or a Chrome problem 18:40:05 Matt_King: People recently reminded us that it doesn't work on Android 18:40:44 Matt_King: If we can make it work, I think we should. But if we can't make it work, I think we should start bugging the people who maintain the software whic is at fault 18:41:03 Matt_King: We know the bug is reproducible. We don't know if the open issues being mentioned here are the root cause 18:42:08 Jem: There is a comment from April of this year on one of these external reports. They write about how this may be a delay problem 18:42:47 https://issues.chromium.org/issues/40260928#comment5 18:43:12 Jem: They included a screen recording of the bug being expressed in Chrome 18:44:02 Matt_King: I want to get to the bottom of whether or not this is something caused by our code 18:44:53 Jem: They're saying that Google Maps has a significant delay. They're actually talking about two different examples: Google Maps and APG 18:45:29 Matt_King: Are these problems present only when TalkBack is running, or do they happen without TalkBack running? 18:45:38 Jem: I think it's when TalkBack is running... 18:46:36 jongund: If it's a bug, it probably have something to do with aria-activedescendent. Is it possible that this would work if we didn't use aria-activedescendent? 18:46:53 s/have/has/ 18:47:11 This is the content from the chrome bug report, filed by Adrian Roselli. 18:47:18 "Using the APG listbox with states at https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/patterns/combobox/examples/combobox-autocomplete-both/, each time I moved through the options, there is a visual stutter where the TalkBack focus seems to move to an item much further in the options, then causes the listbox to scroll to the top, and then jump back to the selection. The video annotates these throughout." 18:47:29 Matt_King: I don't know if we would want to make another example just for that purpose. If someone wanted to test it out to verify whether that is the root cause, that would at least be helpful to the Android and/or TalkBack developers 18:47:51 Matt_King: I could be helpful to make a code pen to test out that theory that you could attach to the Google bug 18:48:12 Matt_King: but that's just your hypothesis right now, correct? 18:48:15 jongund: Correct 18:48:47 Matt_King: I don't think we would want to re-write the APG example for that reason 18:48:49 jongund: Agreed 18:49:07 Jem: This sounds like a TalkBack problem. There's another comment (this one from 2023) that suggests this 18:49:35 jongund_ has joined #aria-apg 18:50:04 Matt_King: so the next step? It seems like a problem to have this really important pattern not to work on mobile 18:50:25 jongund: I can build a codepen, but I can't test it because I don't have any Android devices 18:50:30 Jem: I have an Android device for testing 18:51:32 Matt_King: It sounds like we're getting a plan of action. We have one hypothesis to test which will require two people: jongund will make the test, and another person with an Android device (perhaps Jem) can verify 18:51:58 Topic: Issue 3275 - Question about color contrast 18:52:03 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3275 18:52:21 Matt_King: someone is asking for advice. It's a bit out-of-scope for the APG because it's not about an APG example 18:52:38 Matt_King: does anyone want to direct this person to the right place for their question? 18:52:55 Jem: Yes, and I can transfer the issue to the WGAG group, as well 18:53:05 Matt_King: That would be great, thank you! 18:53:16 Topic: Issue 3261: Spinbuttons, Target Size, and equivalent exception 18:53:25 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3261 18:53:44 Matt_King: The ARIA-AT group also has concerns about our spin buttons 18:54:06 Matt_King: There are some concerns here about the target size for the spinners. Also, how would having an "edit" box effect this? 18:54:31 Matt_King: In ARIA-AT, we are wondering why we have a spinner that doesn't have an "edit" box? Is that realistic? 18:55:20 Matt_King: it seems like we would never want to recommend that anyone use this spinner. If they were going to build something that behaves this way, they should use the slider. If you were going to use the spinner, then you should have an "edit" box? 18:55:29 Jem: Should we retire this example, then? Or modify it? 18:55:44 Matt_King: This is a good question for jongund because I think he worked on this example 18:56:05 Matt_King: Or really, for anyone: Can anyone think of a case where you would want to use a spinner without an "Edit" button? 18:56:28 Jem: I see the use case for mobile 18:56:38 Matt_King: where they don't have "edit" buttons? 18:56:41 I need to leave a little early 18:57:14 Jem: Yes, they just act like a spinner. For creating an event on a calendar, you just click the arrow button to select the year, month, and day. 18:57:33 Matt_King: so there's no place for you to type in the number? 18:57:39 Jem: No. This is on iOS 18:57:47 Adam_Page: Yes, iOS certainly uses this pattern for "date" inputs 18:58:11 Adam_Page: An important difference is that iOS accepts scrolling input. I think they would make an argument that it's a significant ease-of-use difference 18:58:40 Adam_Page: They don't have buttons like we do. They don't have explicit up and down buttons to increment and decrement. Instead, the user scrolls through the options 18:58:56 Matt_King: That's what iOS calls its "picker" adjustable value when you use VoiceOver 18:59:06 Adam_Page: A sighted person would use their finger to drag up and down 18:59:13 Matt_King: How is it different from a slider? 18:59:43 Adam_Page: It wraps around, so it's like you are scrolling a wheel that wraps around (unlike a drop-down with a distinct start and end) 19:00:20 Matt_King: So iOS doesn't have up and down buttons. If they had a mobile web implementation of this, how would you make this? 19:00:29 Jem: Scroll. Touch to push up and push down 19:00:54 Adam_Page: I've seen web implementations of this, but not many. I wouldn't say it's a popular approach to date input 19:01:35 Matt_King: We're at time for today's meeting, but there is more to talk about here (do we keep this example? Do we change this example? How do we change it?) I will put it on the agenda for next week 19:01:40 Matt_King: Thanks everyone! 19:01:44 Zakim, end the meeting 19:01:44 As of this point the attendees have been jongund, Adam_Page, jugglinmike, Jemma, howard-e, CurtBellew, Matt_King 19:01:46 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 19:01:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/07/01-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 19:01:54 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:01:54 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:02:20 RRSAgent, leave 19:02:20 I see no action items