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13:36:31 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
13:37:03 <ivan> Chair: laurentlm
13:37:03 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Annotation Task Force Telco
14:01:50 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #pm-ann
14:02:13 <LaurentLM> present+
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14:03:08 <ivan> present+
14:03:23 <ivan> present+ duga, hadrien, george
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14:05:36 <George> present+
14:07:35 <duga> scribe+
14:07:54 <ivan> Topic: organizations
14:07:57 <duga> LaurentLM: What orgs are interested in this project
14:08:28 <duga> ... EDRLab talked to himmer (sp?) who are interested but will not join
14:09:07 <duga> ... Colibrio made a presentation on CFI use and presented the fact that Colibrio has released an open source JS library for CFI
14:09:38 <George> George has joined #pm-ann
14:09:46 <duga> ... So those are two who are interested, does anyone knows anyone else?
14:09:53 <duga> ... (sounds like no)
14:09:55 <ivan> topic: documentation
14:10:42 <duga> ... proposal for docs is to use github as a subdir under somewhere [I missed where]
14:10:56 <ivan> q+
14:11:04 <duga> ... we still need to decide Note vs rec
14:11:18 <ivan> q-
14:11:25 <ivan> q+
14:11:34 <duga> ... apparently the current admin at W3C isn't happy with Note -> Rec process
14:11:38 <George> George has joined #pm-ann
14:11:42 <duga> ... so we need to decide ASAP
14:11:58 <duga> ivan: Rec means we need 2 implementations
14:12:13 <duga> ... and in this case we will probably need to prove interop between RSes
14:12:32 <duga> ... If I look at that and the few number of orgs interested, then I am not sure we can do rec track
14:12:45 <duga> ... just trying to be realistic
14:13:00 <duga> LaurentLM: We have Colibrio and EDRLab
14:13:05 <duga> ... which should be good
14:13:36 <duga> ivan: No, sorry. There are 2 independent implementations, but the minimum of 2 should require interchange as well
14:13:55 <George> George has joined #pm-ann
14:14:00 <duga> ... so we need more than 2, maybe 3 or 4
14:14:15 <George> q+
14:14:54 <duga> LaurentLM: Are you sure that using the Readium kit at different companues won't count as multiple impls?
14:15:14 <duga> ivan: No, it is like Google and Brave implementing the same thing. They are considered the same impl
14:15:38 <George> George has joined #pm-ann
14:15:38 <duga> ... I would like it to be a rec, but I am trying to defend against objections
14:15:41 <duga> q+
14:15:52 <ivan> ack ivan
14:15:57 <duga> George: Ric Johnson and VitalSource are interested in interchange
14:16:24 <duga> ... They are also interested in citations. They are no longer members, but I can check if they are implementing
14:16:28 <duga> ... they are not in WG
14:16:33 <duga> ivan: That is ok
14:16:35 <George> George has joined #pm-ann
14:16:52 <duga> ... CR does not require they be W3C members
14:17:09 <duga> ach George
14:17:12 <duga> ack George
14:18:03 <duga> duga: So Note to rec is an issue, what about the other direction?
14:18:20 <duga> ivan: No, not a problem, it would just stay as a working draft
14:18:56 <duga> LaurentLM: I would be in favor of going to rec track
14:19:18 <duga> ... Note is ok at first, but it is a problem for wider adopion
14:19:45 <duga> LaurentLM: Back to documentation
14:20:00 <duga> ivan: Should be in the 3.4 line in github
14:20:12 <duga> LaurentLM: Yes, with folder name annotations
14:20:38 <duga> ... Next item is process and use cases
14:20:39 <ivan> topic: use cases
14:20:54 <duga> ... we should start with them, ok?
14:21:08 <duga> ivan: Yes, definitely
14:21:22 <duga> LaurentLM: I have a Google doc that I started
14:21:29 <duga> ... we can move to github later
14:21:39 <LaurentLM> link to the temporary google doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12V_HTYNTQhrAcqT3ve0mMd8GIeybEMq9B5Q7D1M4FdI/edit?tab=t.0
14:21:58 <duga> q?
14:22:02 <duga> ack duga
14:22:47 <duga> ... It would be good to add to this document in the next few days, then we can move the best ones to github
14:22:59 <duga> ivan: So 1 paragraph is 1 use case?
14:23:03 <duga> LaurentLM: Yes
14:23:39 <LaurentLM> first use case : A user decides to annotate a textual section of an EPUB. He selects the section, triggers the annotation affordance, optionally enters a note, selects a highlight mode and color. He then saves the annotation. The selected section appears on the page with the chosen highlight.
14:24:32 <LaurentLM> comments?
14:24:34 <ivan> q+
14:24:37 <duga> q+
14:24:48 <duga> ack ivan
14:25:48 <duga> ivan: We already have annotations, the important thing is the interchange
14:26:02 <duga> q-
14:26:16 <duga> ... do we even need this one? Since it already exists
14:26:44 <George> q+
14:26:45 <duga> ... looking for other use cases for the web, but I am not finding them
14:27:03 <duga> ... what we really care about is how are these different from web annotations
14:27:34 <duga> LaurentLM: W3C annotations has so much in it. Maybe we should close the door on unnecessary things
14:27:55 <duga> ivan: The use case doc structure is ours, we could start with exactly that
14:28:24 <duga> ... e.g. "web annotations allows, but we don't need" at the start of the use cases
14:28:40 <duga> ack George
14:29:10 <duga> George: A simple use case, I read in Thorium, annotate, then open the same book on the phone in a different app
14:29:37 <duga> ... That isn't even between people
14:29:59 <duga> LaurentLM: That is on the list near the top
14:30:22 <LaurentLM> second one: A user decides to annotate an image of an EPUB. He selects the image and triggers the annotation affordance. The annotation feature is then identical to the one associated with a textual selection.
14:30:31 <duga> ... There are some obvious ones before it, but the only one I want to call out is images, etc
14:30:43 <duga> ... we should probably discuss this
14:31:33 <duga> George: There are a couple of AI tools to get the description of the image
14:32:02 <duga> ... I could annotate the image with that, but I may need a sighted user to confirm the annotation
14:32:25 <duga> George: Just select it and annotate
14:32:37 <duga> LaurentLM: In Thorium, that ability doesn't exist
14:32:56 <duga> ... This will inform our choice of selectors
14:33:08 <duga> George: What about figures?
14:33:17 <ivan> q+
14:33:34 <duga> LaurentLM: If we require images, we will get figures
14:33:59 <duga> ivan: Apart from the tech issues, what are the arguments for not annotating images?
14:34:25 <duga> ... It seems fine in a use case document
14:34:28 <duga> q+
14:34:32 <duga> ack ivan
14:34:34 <duga> ack duga
14:36:00 <ivan> q+
14:37:10 <duga> duga: Do we need all the possibilities?
14:37:28 <duga> LaurentLM: There are definitely technical issues with some of these things
14:37:41 <duga> ... maybe we can add a use case for images, but not video, etc?
14:37:59 <duga> ivan: Just because it is in the use case document, doesn't mean we don't have to support it
14:38:24 <duga> ... If it is a valid use case, we should add it, then explain why we are not supporting the use case
14:38:31 <LaurentLM> q+
14:38:35 <duga> ack ivan
14:38:45 <duga> ... technical issues aside, it is a valid use case
14:39:08 <duga> LaurentLM: So we can have use cases that are not in the requirements list?
14:39:11 <duga> ivan: Yes
14:39:20 <duga> LaurentLM: Ok, we can dream in the use cases
14:39:29 <LaurentLM> third one: A user creates an annotation. He can categorise this annotation with a string (let’s call it a tag), so that annotations can easily be grouped together. Examples: “analysis”, “to be discussed”.
14:39:30 <duga> ... there is another small use case
14:39:41 <duga> ... categorization
14:40:05 <duga> ... Being able to add a label
14:40:38 <duga> ... So the annotator can add some semantics
14:40:44 <duga> q+
14:40:50 <LaurentLM> q-
14:41:53 <ivan> ack duga
14:42:16 <ivan> q+
14:43:26 <duga> duga: Is this use case valid for us? Since we are specing interchange
14:44:04 <duga> LaurentLM: If we have the possibility to tag, then we will need this in interchange
14:45:03 <duga> ivan: The real use case is adding categories to the interchange
14:45:12 <LaurentLM> q+
14:45:16 <duga> ack ivan
14:45:17 <ivan> ack ivan
14:45:20 <duga> ack LaurentLM
14:45:31 <duga> LaurentLM: I will move this to the last section for interchange
14:45:34 <duga> ... and clarify
14:45:48 <LaurentLM> next use case: A user decides to bookmark a location in an EPUB. The current cursor is used as an anchor. He selects the section. He triggers the annotation affordance, optionally enters a note, selects a highlight mode and color. He then saves the annotation. A bookmark icon appears on the page, near the line where the cursor was positioned when the bookmark was created.
14:46:01 <Hadrien> q+
14:46:07 <ivan> q+
14:46:30 <duga> LaurentLM: People also want to share bookmarks, it is not clear if the current spec covers bookmarks
14:46:43 <duga> ack Hadrien
14:47:04 <duga> Hadrien: You have bootmarks and highlights, and either can be annotated
14:47:12 <George> q+
14:47:19 <duga> ... a highlight is essentially a range, but a bookmark isn't
14:47:45 <duga> ... an annotation is complementary to those two (highlight and annotation)
14:47:46 <duga> q+
14:47:55 <duga> ack ivan
14:48:04 <duga> ivan: I agree with Hadrien
14:48:40 <duga> ... We are talking annotations and selectors, a selector could be a range or a bookmark
14:49:04 <duga> ... we need to add them both to use cases, and yes they should be separated
14:49:36 <duga> ... in the bookmarks use case, a big difference between an epub and web page, a book is typically much longe
14:50:05 <duga> ... it is unusual for someone to read the whole epub in one go
14:50:25 <duga> ... so we need to clarify in the use cases that there is an emphasis difference here
14:50:29 <LaurentLM> q?
14:50:33 <duga> q-
14:50:34 <ivan> ack George
14:51:19 <Hadrien> q+
14:51:31 <duga> George: I see 3 or 4 items in this annotation. I see a tag, a color, the content, and one bookmark (the location)
14:51:48 <duga> ... so when I move devices I have a last known reading position
14:52:28 <duga> LaurentLM: I didn't put this in the use cases, since this is not a user action, but rather is automatic
14:52:49 <duga> George: I don't know if that is a flag that goes across users
14:53:03 <LaurentLM> q?
14:53:19 <duga> ... in schools teachers want to know amount read, etc, but we aren't going there, we are just looking at the annotation transfer
14:53:23 <ivan> ack Hadrien
14:53:49 <duga> Hadrien: I would treat last known reading position as different from a bookmark, and typically that can't be annotated
14:54:29 <duga> ... And the progression is transient, so it may not be very interesting for this work
14:54:55 <duga> ... It seems better for syncing across devices, so I would exclude it from our use cases
14:55:29 <duga> LaurentLM: But when I export wouldn't it be interesting to export it?
14:55:31 <duga> q+
14:55:39 <duga> Hadrien: maybe, but not for sharing
14:56:02 <duga> ack duga
14:58:49 <LaurentLM> brady: if I'm jumping betwen devices, I might want my reading position to follow, not in other use cases. Make it optional in the RS is a UX complexity. My alternative is to explicitely add a bookmark if I want to export it. It is almost an implementation detail. We should not muddy the waters with this current position
14:59:28 <duga> LaurentLM: We are at time, if everyone could review the use cases and add as needed, and we can finalize the next time we meet
14:59:43 <duga> George: Will we move this into the repo?
14:59:58 <duga> LaurentLM: Yes. Should we allow some editing first, or move it now?
15:00:08 <duga> George: I prefer github
15:00:15 <duga> ivan: Let's take it offline
15:00:43 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:00:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/26-pm-ann-minutes.html ivan
15:01:54 <ivan> i|first use case|subtopic: simple annotation|
15:02:35 <ivan> |second one: |subtopic: annotating images, videos|
15:03:11 <ivan> i|third one: |subtopic: adding tags|
15:03:24 <ivan> i|second one: |subtopic: annotating images, videos|
15:04:00 <ivan> i|next use case: |subtopic: bookmarks|
15:04:19 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:04:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/26-pm-ann-minutes.html ivan
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