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14:46:12 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/06/26-pcg-a11y-irc
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14:46:57 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
14:46:57 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
14:47:10 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:47:21 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
14:48:13 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Recommend a format for the evaluation date: Issue #2725 in EPUB specs repo.
14:48:33 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Using the UX display guide with Daisy files: Issue #401
14:48:52 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Shall we add a note on audio only about type of narration to help users identify AI voices? (Issue #559
14:49:11 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Feedback - use of AI to create alternative descriptions - for a future update to guideline: Issue #458
14:49:24 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business.
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15:04:46 <CharlesL> present+
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15:05:13 <mgarrish> present+
15:05:13 <CharlesL> scribe+
15:05:19 <George> present+
15:05:41 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:05:41 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Recommend a format for the evaluation date: Issue #2725 in EPUB specs repo. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:05:58 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2725#issuecomment-2988486467
15:06:29 <Madeleine> present+
15:07:30 <CharlesL> mgarrish: required date format for the evaluation date certifiedby etc. right now any date formate is currently supported but we need to standardize we thought we would use ISO date standard
15:07:31 <mgarrish> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2731
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15:07:57 <CharlesL> ... require YMD, YM, or Y this was brought up in the WG call
15:08:20 <CharlesL> We will allow any ISO DATE, DATE/TIME display can be customized
15:09:51 <CharlesL> ... proposed dropping it to a SHOULD because a MUST would need to require a version # bump to 1.2.  If we leave it as a SHOULD this would cause more processing to ensure its a localizable DATE field or some other non ISO date which couldn't be localized. ISO8601 format. Not sure in terms of Normative priorities.
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15:10:06 <Hadrien> present +
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15:10:41 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: EvaluatedDate is not Manditory, but we need to know if you do include a date will it be a MUST or SHOULD .
15:10:59 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:11:10 <Hadrien> q+
15:11:15 <CharlesL> ... ACE currently doesn't check but we can adjust ACE to make it more elevated.
15:11:32 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:11:52 <CharlesL> Hadrien: i am in favor of making it a MUST if we bump the version number.
15:12:03 <CharlesL> q+
15:12:30 <mgarrish> q+
15:12:36 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: AccessModeSufficient is also in the same boat, currently a MUST but if we get pushback we can make it a SHOULD.
15:12:39 <AvneeshSingh> ack charl
15:13:29 <AvneeshSingh> ack mga
15:13:36 <CharlesL> Charles: I also agree this should be a MUST as we will more than likely be a 1.2
15:14:07 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:14:31 <CharlesL> mgarrish: Put in an Editors Note stating this we will make this a MUST but will require a version bump to signify folks to take a closer look
15:15:38 <CharlesL> mgarrish: I don't think this is a problem, the PR is currently a MUST
15:16:13 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:16:36 <CharlesL> ... ISO8601 don't care if its just a DATE or DATETIME it won't affect display.
15:17:21 <CharlesL> mgarrish: I will add the time option and keep it as a MUST and add an Editors Note about this requiring a version # bump
15:17:45 <mgarrish> RESOLVED: keep the requirement a must with the addition of allowing time values and add a note explaining the potential impact on the version number
15:18:28 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:18:28 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Using the UX display guide with Daisy files: Issue #401 -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:18:51 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/401
15:19:30 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: using the guide can provide same display for EPUB or DAISY files.
15:20:11 <CharlesL> Hadrien: increased number of both DAISY and EPUB files intermixed.
15:20:37 <George> q+
15:20:38 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:20:40 <CharlesL> ... an interest in provide a11y metadata regardless of format. consistency for UX
15:22:17 <CharlesL> George: important need to do. most people with disabilities were getting their books from one place or another and traditionally NLS, Learning Ally - DAISY audio books but those books were always the same.  some navigation, no page nav, audio recordings.
15:22:43 <Hadrien> q+
15:22:54 <AvneeshSingh> ack george
15:23:32 <CharlesL> ... organizations could display metadata based on date produced, but if new stuff could get this metadata, and could retrofit old data to add this metadata.
15:23:35 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:23:58 <CharlesL> ... not sure if you can go put it back into that old book
15:24:34 <CharlesL> Hadrien: if you are using ONX, or OPDS there is a solution, but not sure we have a uniform solution which is why I have the PR.
15:25:22 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: we have metadata about pagenumbers, audio only etc. but no concept of certification for DAISY.  how can we make this work.
15:25:24 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:25:43 <CharlesL> George: Internet Archive only has 1 entry for TOC but not really useful.
15:26:00 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: what is the way forward?
15:26:23 <CharlesL> Hadrien: recomment sharing the metadata in another format
15:26:23 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:27:20 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: DAISY is by default accessible which is why it didn't really need a11y metadata inside DAISY files.
15:27:45 <Hadrien> q+
15:27:52 <CharlesL> ... DAISY pipeline does have a way to inject a11y metadata but the OPF will need to be updated.
15:27:57 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:28:36 <George> q+
15:29:25 <CharlesL> Hadrien: I know there are DAISY pipelines with TTS engines, if it is automated. some may prefer Human Narrated or presence of audio is important.
15:29:29 <AvneeshSingh> ack george
15:30:52 <CharlesL> George: another issue Recording for the Blind uses volunteers, 2 hour stints, so you don't get the same narrator for the entire book. No for Human Narrated books you have different characters have different voice actors which is a great experience
15:30:54 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:32:30 <CharlesL> Morris: recording of gender of narrators has come up. some people prefer a particular gender, may want a female or male voice. we wanted to de-emphasis gender but this is at odds what is being requested.
15:33:18 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: DAISY" metadata some kind of crosswalk with completely solve this? what are the next steps?
15:33:18 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:33:38 <CharlesL> George: we could list the features in the DAISY file a checklist.
15:33:55 <CharlesL> ... ABC that checklist could be helpful in determining if you will get this book or not.
15:34:06 <Hadrien> q+
15:34:14 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: we can take this on by DAISY.
15:34:18 <AvneeshSingh> ack georg
15:34:45 <CharlesL> Hadrien: I agree this is DAISY specific thing and can help with OPDS.
15:34:48 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:35:04 <CharlesL> George: would this apply to audio books.
15:35:43 <CharlesL> ... BISG is working on an Audio book specification.  traditionally mainstream would not have page numbers, image descriptions etc.  the checklist idea seems interesting.
15:36:33 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: things can be inferred by the structure from the NCC or OPF file.  there is no programmatic way into the files this has to be in the metadata
15:36:38 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:37:07 <CharlesL> Hadrien: if there is an audio book spec. it would warrant covering them in a display guide.
15:37:41 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: Plan: to have a discussion with DAISY members, I can make a checklist which details we can record from the DAISY publication.
15:38:30 <CharlesL> ... especially want feedback from Scandinavian members.
15:39:08 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:39:29 <CharlesL> Madeleine: define a set base on date
15:40:05 <CharlesL> ... give them a name then that profile can be applied for a batch.
15:41:07 <CharlesL> George: class of books for dyslexics where images were not described. i think called Trade books
15:41:24 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:41:24 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Shall we add a note on audio only about type of narration to help users identify AI voices? (Issue #559 -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:42:07 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/458
15:42:12 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: need for AI, vs. human vs synthetic
15:42:20 <CharlesL> q+
15:42:35 <CharlesL> George: human or not
15:42:41 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:43:22 <CharlesL> Charles: knowing if it is the famous person or an AI representation
15:43:31 <Hadrien> q+
15:43:43 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:43:49 <CharlesL> George: yes we did this at CSUN John Wayne speaking a book.
15:43:59 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:44:54 <CharlesL> Hadrien: how do I identify a synthetic voice. can i identify the gender, and 3rd might be a cloned voice knowing who it is a clone of is also important to know.
15:45:36 <CharlesL> ... identify audio book narrated by a human being will be very important as well
15:46:50 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: Schema.org metadata group need to look into this, APA and  BISG to come up with some new metadata.
15:47:11 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:47:16 <CharlesL> Hadrien: there is already a w3c audio spec so what is BISG doing?
15:48:08 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:48:09 <CharlesL> George: lot of work going on right now. should be standardized.  I don't know where that is happening.  BISG is not a standards group only applying standards.
15:48:40 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: MARC, ONIX will also need to be harmonized
15:49:06 <CharlesL> Madeleine: we need to coordinate what are the categories are and then we can define the vocabulary
15:49:35 <CharlesL> George: I can introduce Madeleine with the BISG folks
15:49:53 <CharlesL> ... they wanted me to join that audio book group.
15:50:16 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: is there a subset of folks with metadata folks at BISG.
15:50:44 <CharlesL> George: Clair with OCLC had a colleages Morris join call
15:51:08 <CharlesL> Morris: I need to clear it with Clair
15:51:08 <Hadrien> q+
15:51:36 <CharlesL> George: OCLC is also working with MARC records.
15:51:44 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:52:13 <CharlesL> Hadrien: pointing out this is also important for EPUB, who is narrating, voice gender, etc.
15:52:35 <CharlesL> ... with media overlays. synthetic, cloned, human, gender etc.
15:52:59 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: MTM is using synthetic voice for media overlays.
15:53:49 <CharlesL> George: all of these need to consult with.
15:53:51 <CharlesL> q+
15:54:03 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: I will connect with Nordic people.
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15:55:54 <CharlesL> Morris: noticing with audio books AI voices that are speaking as they are not real. would like to see this in MARC eventually.
15:56:56 <CharlesL> ... we can identify the voices are artificial.
15:57:05 <Hadrien> q+
15:57:19 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:58:32 <CharlesL> charles: Schema.org may have already have these values we may need.
15:58:32 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:58:33 <LauraC> I would be careful about indicating voices as “male” or “female.” What is the reason for that? What are people looking for when they make a decision to choose one of those to listen to? What is the quality of voice that is the actual decision point?
15:59:26 <CharlesL> Hadrien: 11 Labs has iconic voices. Narrators can provide audio to be cloned. and they get revenue license.
15:59:58 <CharlesL> ... its not fraud because it could be real and legal.
16:00:03 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:00:42 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: July 10 next call
16:00:43 <LauraC> I just finished listening to an audiobook that really sounded like AI because the emphasis was odd. But it wasn’t AI because the book was old.
16:01:29 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/26-pcg-a11y-minutes.html AvneeshSingh
16:01:39 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
16:02:35 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, leave
16:02:35 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, CharlesL, mgarrish, George, Madeleine
16:02:35 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pcg-a11y