12:48:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:48:06 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/06/25-matf-irc
12:48:06 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:48:07 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Joe_Humbert
12:48:27 <Joe_Humbert> Zakim, this is MATF June 25, 2025
12:48:27 <Zakim> got it, Joe_Humbert
12:48:46 <Joe_Humbert> Meeting: MATF June 25, 2025
12:48:51 <Joe_Humbert> Chair+
12:48:56 <Joe_Humbert> present+
12:49:20 <Joe_Humbert> agenda+ POLL: Do you agree the focus of this group should be about applying WCAG to native mobile apps?
12:49:51 <Joe_Humbert> agenda+ Page definition (Continued discussion)
12:50:03 <Joe_Humbert> agenda+ 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value
12:50:15 <Joe_Humbert> agenda+ Change of context definition
12:50:29 <Joe_Humbert> agenda+ User interface component definition
12:50:54 <Joe_Humbert> regrets+ Quintin Balsdon
12:51:10 <Joe_Humbert> regrets+ Karla Daniela Rubiano Charry
13:01:22 <Tanya> Tanya has joined #matf
13:01:45 <rachaely> rachaely has joined #matf
13:01:48 <Jon_Gibbins> Jon_Gibbins has joined #matf
13:01:59 <Megan_Pletzer> Megan_Pletzer has joined #matf
13:02:05 <Megan_Pletzer> present+
13:02:13 <Tanya> present+
13:02:13 <Jon_Gibbins> present+
13:02:31 <rachaely> present+
13:05:40 <Joe_Humbert> Zakim, nominate a scribe
13:05:40 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose rachaely
13:06:04 <Joe_Humbert> scribe: rachaely
13:06:40 <Joe_Humbert> move to next agendum
13:06:40 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- POLL: Do you agree the focus of this group should be about applying WCAG to native mobile apps? -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert]
13:07:03 <Joe_Humbert> POLL: Do you agree the focus of this group should be about applying WCAG to native mobile apps? +1, 0, -1
13:07:09 <Tanya> -1
13:07:10 <Megan_Pletzer> +1
13:07:13 <Jon_Gibbins> +1
13:07:17 <rachaely> +1
13:07:46 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert this is not a binding poll, just taking a pulse
13:08:03 <Tim> Tim has joined #matf
13:08:15 <Tim> present+
13:08:59 <Jon_Gibbins> q+
13:09:06 <Joe_Humbert> ack Jon_Gibbins
13:09:32 <rachaely> Tanya given discussion from last meeting, it doesn't sound possible to focus on native mobile apps only. we should focus on creating notes that will apply to native mobile app, cross-platform apps, etc
13:10:32 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert our decsions shouldn't be swayed by expection from W3C. same problem exists for WCAG2ICT more broadly for software. we have a cause to say our work is more about native mobile than web
13:12:01 <rachaely> from Jamie not in chat: our time here in the meeting should focus on content related to non-web environments like iOS and Android. at some point we should review how conversation apply in a web app context
13:12:10 <Jon_Gibbins> rachaely: Just noting that the above comment quotes me (Jon_Gibbins) rather than Joe_Humbert :-)
13:12:19 <Joe_Humbert> move to next agendum
13:12:19 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Page definition (Continued discussion) -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert]
13:12:44 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/110
13:13:23 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert Jon remove comment with definitions we discussed at last meeting
13:14:28 <rachaely> Jon_Gibbins comment is likely hidden in history because there are so many comments, so it collapses them, but i can't see that now.
13:14:31 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com//issues/110#issuecomment-2788714863
13:15:09 <rachaely> Jon_Gibbins  didn't intend to delete the comment, will look into what happen
13:15:52 <Jon_Gibbins> Somehow the link URL us garbled in the meeting notes – it should be https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/110#issuecomment-2788714863
13:17:51 <Jon_Gibbins> The meeting notes from last week’s meeting has a stray close paren, i.e. https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/110#issuecomment-2788714863)
13:18:34 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert detlev added comments based on last meeting's minutes with concerns about definitions in broader group
13:18:35 <Jon_Gibbins> The comment itself is still there.
13:19:49 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert Jon provided additional comments on the definitions
13:20:00 <Joe_Humbert> Proposed definition from Jon_Gibbins: an embedded resource in a native mobile app plus any other resources that are used in the rendering or intended to be rendered together with it by a platform (or user agent)
13:20:07 <Joe_Humbert> q?
13:20:26 <Jon_Gibbins> q+
13:20:34 <Joe_Humbert> ack Jon_Gibbins
13:21:51 <rachaely> Jon_Gibbins not much to add beyond what's added in github. i posted pros and cons for us to consider not just now, but also later. we can have a working definition now and come back to the pros and cons to make sure everything makes sense in context. i think we need to make a decision to move forward with
13:22:12 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert you changed from non-embeded to embed, can you explain?
13:22:51 <rachaely> Jon_Gibbins web pages are displayed in a browser, whereas mobile is part of the software itself
13:23:16 <rachaely> Jon_Gibbins we are talking about screens that are embedded as part of the software of a mobile app
13:23:26 <Tanya> Tanya has joined #matf
13:24:25 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert i think we need to settle on something for the time being. i wonder if we can put it in brackets for now and decide later we can replace if we want
13:24:31 <Joe_Humbert> ack Jamie
13:25:59 <rachaely> from Jamie not in the chat: we feel kind of stuck in the details, but maybe we can move forward in some actions. we need to be specific to make a definition that work, but for the time being, i think Joe's suggestion is good for now. we can refer back to discussions on this later. how can we keep moving forward?
13:27:31 <Joe_Humbert> q?
13:27:44 <Tanya> q+
13:28:12 <Tanya> q-
13:28:33 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert let's see which SC use the term "web page"
13:29:17 <Jon_Gibbins> q+
13:30:40 <rachaely> Jamie not in chat: maybe we should look at a few of them and see how the proposed definitions fit for the normative text. bybass blocks is one that may be affected by the different definition. just something, so we can move forward
13:31:13 <Jon_Gibbins> +1
13:31:14 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert proposing temporary term of dropping "web" so we would just have "page" and "pages". can we use this as a placeholder?
13:31:17 <rachaely> +1
13:31:20 <Tim> +1
13:31:24 <Tanya> +1
13:31:34 <Joe_Humbert> SC that include term web page:
13:31:34 <Joe_Humbert> 1.4.2
13:31:34 <Joe_Humbert> 2.3.1
13:31:34 <Joe_Humbert> 2.3.2
13:31:35 <Joe_Humbert> 2.4.1
13:31:35 <Joe_Humbert> 2.4.2
13:31:35 <Joe_Humbert> 2.4.3
13:31:36 <Joe_Humbert> 2.4.5
13:31:36 <Joe_Humbert> 2.4.8
13:31:36 <Joe_Humbert> 3.1.1
13:31:37 <Joe_Humbert> 3.2.3
13:31:37 <Joe_Humbert> 3.2.4
13:31:37 <Joe_Humbert> 3.2.6
13:31:38 <Joe_Humbert> 3.3.4
13:31:38 <Joe_Humbert> 3.3.6
13:31:43 <rachaely> Jamie verbally agreed
13:31:58 <Joe_Humbert> action: use temporary term of [Page]
13:32:31 <Jon_Gibbins> I feel that the appropriateness of whatever definition we choose to go with for now will “come out in the wash”. We will see if something works well enough, and if it does not, we vote to change it again before we publish our next draft.
13:33:09 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:33:09 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert if you are good with definitions proposed by Jon, please thumbs up in GitHub, so we can move forward with these
13:33:14 <Jamie> present+
13:33:18 <Tanya> q+
13:33:43 <Jon_Gibbins> q-
13:33:58 <Joe_Humbert> action: Joe to add definition from Jon_Gibbins for a thumbs up in GitHub
13:34:04 <Joe_Humbert> ack Tanya
13:35:05 <rachaely> Tanya question to check if i'm following. let's say what is stated in the absrtract stays as is, that our guidance applies to native mobile apps and web apps. how will the new definition apply? will it be added as a note in the draft?
13:36:09 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert like WCAG, we will have a list of definitions. the definition for web page will remain as is. there will be a new definition for the new term, temp name page. then there will be a higher level section describing where the new definition applies.
13:36:34 <rachaely> Tanya so the new definition would apply to mobile web apps if the abstract remains as is?
13:37:07 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert yes, but the abstract may change. we could say mobile web apps are not governed by this doc. not proposed yet, but a future discussion
13:37:21 <Joe_Humbert> move to next agendum
13:37:21 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert]
13:37:34 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/48
13:38:28 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert this has been discussed and has tasks for adding notes on roles and states, custom actions, and standard user interface
13:38:40 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert discussed in March 202
13:38:46 <rachaely> 2025
13:39:23 <rachaely> q+
13:42:37 <Joe_Humbert> ack rachaely
13:44:16 <Jamie> q+
13:44:17 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert read out 4.1.2 SC and for WCAG2ICT there are some notes. first one basically modified it to be less web specific and more software specific. not sure if we need to change that note.
13:44:45 <rachaely> how do we consider on Android the "double tap to activate" in relation to the role?
13:45:50 <Joe_Humbert> ack Jamie
13:46:37 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert this hint content may pertain to the role, but if the user can turn it off, maybe we need to acknowledge that some of the role may be missing
13:46:45 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:48:11 <rachaely> rachaely my understanding is the hint can be turned off for iOS which is additional descriptive content. my understanding in Android hint is the "double tap to __" announcement not controlled by the user
13:48:21 <Joe_Humbert> ack Joe_Humbert
13:49:48 <Jon_Gibbins> q+
13:49:54 <rachaely> Jamie when it comes to standard user interface components because for example, a native button may not announce button, but instead "double-tap to activate"
13:50:43 <Jon_Gibbins> q-
13:50:43 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert verfied that user can turn off the usage hint. Android has both the ability to add a role for some things, but also uses this usage hint for more general active controls
13:51:19 <Joe_Humbert> q?
13:51:29 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert what i've seen is that people are meeting the spirit of the success criteria
13:52:07 <Jon_Gibbins> The way I’ve understood Android’s behaviour for buttons is that if the context is clearly navigation, e.g. selecting from a list of actions, the role of ‘button’ is not announced (and I guess is assumed by users). Where buttons exist in a context with mixed roles, “button” roles are announced.
13:52:40 <Jamie> q+
13:52:51 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert problematic parts in the normative text that may need to change is "including but not limited to: form elements, links and components generated by scripts". the different definitions can change how this SC is viewed even if we don't change normative tesxt
13:53:19 <Joe_Humbert> ack Jamie
13:53:30 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert does anyone have things they'd like to see change with the normative text other than the definitions?
13:53:38 <Joe_Humbert> q?
13:55:12 <Tanya> q+
13:56:10 <rachaely> Jamie what catches me off guard with a note referring primarily to how authors create, it's not just the author, it's calling out issues with standard interfaces. the note in WCAG2ICT is a topic we need to firm up our decision that standard user interface are accessibile as is in a native app context. we've discussed this and that it's not the same
13:56:10 <rachaely> as web, and is inconsistent in some spaces. looking at the scope of the SC, this could change that. since we have actions in the queue, if they are unassigned, i am open to taking them but maybe others on the call are too, so we can move forward on this
13:56:13 <Jon_Gibbins> As Jamie says, the role announcement behaviour could be considered expected platform behaviour for users, and out of the control of content authors.
13:57:58 <Joe_Humbert> ack Tanya
13:58:07 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert WCAG applies to the people building apps, so if they have limited control of what they can change with standard controls. if it is an issues with the base component and the developer hasn't changed it, that is a bug to be filed with the platform Apple or Google
13:59:46 <rachaely> Tanya we have a new setup to discuss with Jan Jaap and probably will propose to group in 2 weeks
14:00:15 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert don't wait for the new process to voluntarily pick up a task
14:01:48 <rachaely> Tanya in audits, we don't always know what was used to build the app. we have one tester who does both iOS and Android who doesn't have a development background. so we should provide methodology that should apply to both regardless of native or cross-platform
14:02:09 <Tim> +1 to what Tanya said
14:02:18 <rachaely> Joe_Humbert i'd love feedback from the group, in later versions of iOS 17 and 18, usage hint is no longer provided for role button
14:03:17 <Joe_Humbert> close the queue
14:03:51 <rachaely> i've noticed this, i couldnt narrow down when the change happened, but i also remember iOS announcing "double-tap to active" more than it does now
14:04:27 <Joe_Humbert> Zakim, list participants
14:04:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, Megan_Pletzer, Tanya, Jon_Gibbins, rachaely, Tim, Jamie
14:04:58 <Joe_Humbert> rrsagent, make minutes
14:04:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/25-matf-minutes.html Joe_Humbert
14:05:35 <Joe_Humbert> rrsagent, bye
14:05:35 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/06/25-matf-actions.rdf :
14:05:35 <RRSAgent> ACTION: use temporary term of [Page] [1]
14:05:35 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/06/25-matf-irc#T13-31-58
14:05:35 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Joe to add definition from Jon_Gibbins for a thumbs up in GitHub [2]
14:05:35 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/06/25-matf-irc#T13-33-58