IRC log of tt on 2025-06-19

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-tt-irc
14:59:17 [Zakim]
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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
14:59:31 [nigel]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/309
14:59:36 [nigel]
Present: Nigel
14:59:41 [nigel]
Regrets: Gary, Andreas
14:59:54 [nigel]
Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/06/05-tt-minutes.html
14:59:56 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
15:00:02 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-tt-minutes.html nigel
15:00:13 [nigel]
Chair: Nigel
15:02:20 [nigel]
present+ Chris_Needham
15:04:22 [nigel]
present+ Pierre
15:05:05 [nigel]
present+ Atsushi
15:05:11 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
15:06:08 [cpn]
cpn has joined #tt
15:06:13 [cpn]
present+ Chris_Needham
15:06:17 [cpn]
scribe+ cpn
15:06:49 [cpn]
Nigel: (Reviews the agenda) Anything else to cover?
15:06:56 [cpn]
(nothing)
15:07:11 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC 1.3
15:07:45 [cpn]
Nigel: Can we fix the PR preview?
15:08:12 [cpn]
Atsushi: I checked the configuration but didn't find any error
15:09:12 [cpn]
Nigel: Please continue
15:10:20 [nigel]
Nigel: Is the namespace work all done?
15:10:39 [nigel]
Atsushi: I've changed it in CVS and have opened a different PR but I'm not sure who will review it.
15:10:47 [nigel]
Nigel: OK, so there's some work to do to finish this.
15:10:54 [atsushi]
DAPT is on CVS (www) -> https://github.com/w3c/ns/pull/4#issuecomment-2982203887
15:12:21 [nigel]
present+ Cyril
15:12:37 [nigel]
Atsushi: I will work on IMSC namespace documents in the same way
15:12:50 [nigel]
Subtopic: Drop Image Profile
15:13:27 [cpn]
Nigel: Last meeting, and in email, I sent a CfC to drop image profile, based on the feedback we've had
15:13:42 [cpn]
... There's a specific proposal
15:13:53 [nigel]
PROPOSAL: Remove Image Profile from IMSC 1.3 and create an IMSC 1.3 Text Profile as a standalone document
15:14:25 [cpn]
Nigel: No comments or objections received, so I'd like to mark this as a resolution
15:14:35 [cpn]
... Last chance for any comments...
15:14:39 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: Remove Image Profile from IMSC 1.3 and create an IMSC 1.3 Text Profile as a standalone document
15:15:17 [cpn]
Nigel: Looking at PR imsc#603, thank you for Pierre for all the work. I've reviewed, it looks good
15:16:09 [cpn]
Pierre: There is one thing. Your last comment on divs with id attributes. One thing PNG did, preserve links to the undated version of the IMSC url
15:16:54 [cpn]
... If some has a link to a fragment in IMSC 1.2 using the undated link, if it's a link to an image profile provision, it will link to the explanation that the IMSC profile has been removed
15:17:08 [cpn]
... It's not completely foolproof, but not a bad practice
15:17:19 [cpn]
... I can add an HTML comment to explain why they're there
15:17:27 [cpn]
Nigel: That's neat, good idea to add a comment
15:18:16 [cpn]
Pierre: I followed the PNG spec as an example
15:18:55 [cpn]
Nigel: The thing is, you'd want it before the heading of the section, otherwise it might scroll the heading out of view. I guess it makes sense
15:19:08 [cpn]
... Anything else to discuss?
15:19:32 [cpn]
Pierre: Other things are minor, I'm accepting your comments now. I think we're good for FPWD
15:20:12 [cpn]
... The comment about reordering things in a section, I'll create a separate issue, it's not related to removing image profile, so can address with other editorial improvements for FPWD
15:20:24 [cpn]
Nigel: The table formatting is probably the most significant, it's now difficult to look at
15:20:56 [cpn]
Pierre: I tried a couple of things, I lean towards making it as close to the previous IMSC version as we can, in case we put image profile back
15:21:03 [cpn]
... I've tried to remove without refactoring as much as possible
15:21:28 [cpn]
Nigel: About the CSS styles, though
15:21:43 [cpn]
Pierre: Yes, we should look at that after FPWD
15:22:02 [cpn]
Nigel: I dealt with this in DAPT, so have a look at the DAPT source and you could copy that
15:22:46 [cpn]
... There's a style section at the top of the document that adds table styling. I think it might be that
15:22:55 [cpn]
Pierre: Ok, I'll take care of that
15:23:42 [cpn]
Nigel: Another thing was dark mode, I found it's changed underneath me so have had to take action to fix it
15:24:01 [cpn]
Pierre: Should we merge this today and set a date for FPWD, e.g., in 2 weeks?
15:24:34 [cpn]
Nigel: We agreed to remove image profile, it's been open more than 2 weeks, has approval, so meets our process requirements
15:24:44 [cpn]
... I'll re-review and approve, then we can merge
15:24:47 [cpn]
Pierre: Thanks
15:25:07 [cpn]
... Do we need to run a CfC for FPWD?
15:25:16 [cpn]
Nigel: Let's do that
15:26:03 [cpn]
... Looking at issues for IMSC 1.3, there's a response from APA, I have an action to include only one text example document with example rendering
15:26:23 [cpn]
... There's one more issue about force display and visibility hidden. Do we do that in FPWD or not?
15:27:27 [cpn]
... We can still do FPWD if there are changes to make later
15:27:31 [cpn]
Pierre: Absolutely
15:27:47 [cpn]
Nigel: After merging, we should check the status of the other PR and close if already done
15:27:56 [cpn]
... Did you look at the respec reference issues?
15:28:07 [cpn]
Pierre: Yes, just a case of refreshing windows, there's caching going on
15:28:28 [cpn]
... There are lots of errors when you first load, then they go away on refresh. Same when opening locally
15:29:15 [cpn]
Nigel: So the action is for me to run a CfC to publish IMSC1.3 as FPWD, once this is merged
15:29:20 [cpn]
... Anything else on IMSC
15:29:26 [cpn]
(nothing)
15:29:33 [nigel]
Topic: DAPT
15:29:45 [nigel]
Subtopic: Test Suite
15:30:06 [cpn]
Nigel: I've made some good progress. I pushed structural stuff to the test suite, license, readme, etc
15:30:21 [cpn]
... Also, for all the issues in the DAPT tests repo that I could, I opened PRs to add tests
15:31:00 [cpn]
.... In the past, for IMSC HRM, rather than reviewing 1 by 1, we put all the tests in a repo and asked if there are any issues with that
15:31:20 [cpn]
... Could do that again. I'd like a branch with all those PRs in it so I can work on a validator
15:31:54 [cpn]
Cyril: I don't have a problem if you merge all the PRs
15:32:03 [cpn]
Nigel: I'll do that, it makes things easier
15:32:51 [nigel]
Subtopic: Required #xmlId-div doesn't match other spec text w3c/dapt#297
15:33:02 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/297
15:33:16 [cpn]
Nigel: We've discussed before, but it's now a pain
15:33:29 [cpn]
... We considered some way of identifying if a div is a script event but didn't agree anything
15:33:59 [cpn]
... xmlId-div has disposition required. Because we don't have a way to scope it to a script event, it applies to all divs
15:34:17 [cpn]
... But the spec is clear elsewhere that they don't have to have xmlId
15:35:09 [cpn]
... So you can't create tests with xmlId. I think we don't need this extension feature. All the normative requirements we need are in the script event mapping feature, so I propose removing xmlId-div
15:35:18 [cpn]
... I created a PR to show what that looks like. Any thoughts?
15:35:46 [cpn]
Cyril: Your proposal sounds fine, I don't have a problem removing the feature section
15:36:11 [cpn]
... Still not convinced by requiring the xmlId on divs to identify that a div represents a script event
15:36:29 [cpn]
Nigel: It doesn't do that, it doesn't say every div with an xmlId has to be a script event.
15:36:36 [cpn]
Cyril: So how to identify a script event?
15:36:58 [cpn]
Nigel: I think the script event mapping says that if it's a div with xmlId and no child divs, it's a script event
15:37:28 [cpn]
Cyril: I don't feel comfortable, I'd rather have a script event id or something
15:37:51 [cpn]
Nigel: We can still propose if it's useful. My sense is that there isn't a problem that needs solving with this
15:38:00 [cpn]
... But could leave to implementation experience
15:38:14 [cpn]
Cyril: No objection to remove the feature itself. Can approve the PR
15:38:30 [cpn]
Nigel: Once we merge the PR to remove the feature, that unblocks adding those tests
15:38:41 [cpn]
... Any other thoughts on this?
15:38:49 [cpn]
(nothing)
15:38:51 [nigel]
SUMMARY: Follow usual PR process to merge the PR and close the issue if no objections
15:39:33 [nigel]
Subtopic: Rename #scriptRepresents to #scriptRepresents-root? w3c/dapt#296
15:39:42 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/296
15:40:20 [cpn]
Nigel: This renaming is a consistency thing. When there's an extension feature that relates to a particular element, we include the element name
15:40:35 [cpn]
... This one is an odd one out. So it's an editorial change to rename it
15:40:41 [cpn]
Cyril: Agree
15:40:58 [cpn]
Nigel: Anyone else?
15:41:02 [cpn]
(nothing)
15:41:09 [nigel]
SUMMARY: @nigelmegitt to change the name as per the issue - editorial change
15:41:54 [nigel]
Subtopic: Should we allow Represents on Text objects? w3c/dapt#295
15:42:03 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/295
15:42:52 [cpn]
Nigel: This came out of #294 where Andreas and Cyril pointed out that this isn't allowed in the model. But I think may be it should.
15:43:34 [cpn]
... Can one script event contain text that represents different things. For example, in audio description would you put one script event that both describes something in the image and reads some on-screen text
15:43:53 [cpn]
... If there's limited time available. Would you do that for any transcription or dubbing workflows?
15:44:16 [cpn]
... It seemed a good idea at the time, but I'm less sure now
15:45:11 [cpn]
Cyril: Trying to remember the use cases I had where Represents is useful on a span. In Netflix content we have annotations that we put at the div level when they're actually span level
15:45:36 [cpn]
... For example, one annotation is when speakers are saying the title of the movie in the movie. When you translate it, you want it to be consistent
15:46:22 [cpn]
... It would be dialog.mainTitle or something like that. But I thought we needed to highlight which part of the script event, as it's a smaller granularity
15:46:39 [cpn]
Nigel: So we think there is a use cases, and would make it easier if we do this
15:46:46 [cpn]
... Should we open a PR for it?
15:47:37 [cpn]
Cyril: We should discuss, if you put Represents on the span part, why not create two or three span parts and put on each? You could have one script event with the entire text of the script, if you don't care about timing, and do Represents at the span level
15:47:58 [cpn]
... Don't want to encourage that. Maybe we should include some guidance to split the events first
15:48:53 [cpn]
Nigel: I agree, this is there if you have to use it. If you want some continuously flowing representation of a script, e.g., a recording, and you can't predict the timings, there could be a disjoint at the script event level when you play it back, because you didn't get the timing exactly right
15:49:14 [cpn]
... Makes sense to add guidance
15:49:33 [cpn]
... Any other thoughts on this?
15:49:40 [cpn]
(nothing)
15:50:53 [cpn]
Nigel: This unlocks PR #294. Andreas sent me a message to say he's happy with the solution in #294. He hasn't approved the PR though
15:51:16 [cpn]
... If we can approve #294 it gives a good basis to resolve the other issue.
15:51:52 [cpn]
Cyril: I'll check. I don't see a problem approving it
15:52:00 [cpn]
Nigel: Thanks, that would be helpful
15:52:15 [nigel]
SUMMARY: @nigelmegitt to open a pull request for this
15:52:44 [nigel]
Topic: TPAC 2025 planning
15:53:17 [cpn]
Nigel: We discussed with APA WG and have requested joint meetings with them and MEIG
15:53:31 [atsushi]
three meeting entries for now -> https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-meetings/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20timed%20text
15:53:50 [cpn]
... I didn't know what to do with the AD CG. There could be a joint meeting with TTWG to look at DAPT and status of implementation issues
15:54:28 [cpn]
... I sent email to the CG. I suggested it for the Monday and Tuesday. My request to members is to focus on the beginning of the week so people don't have to stay longer than needed
15:54:39 [cpn]
... It's a good time to talk about user groups as well
15:55:17 [cpn]
... Speaking of which, there's a CCSUBS meeting on Thursday next week. DAPT is on the agenda,15 minutes to talk about user groups
15:55:48 [nigel]
Chris: I think it's good you're organising around the Monday and Tuesday.
15:56:01 [nigel]
.. MediaWG is organising around the Thursday and Friday so there should be no overlap
15:56:05 [nigel]
.. for those who want to attend both.
15:56:42 [nigel]
.. Cyril, I may send you an email about timed text tracks in MP4 because MediaWG
15:56:52 [nigel]
.. had a whole discussion about this and needed more expertise.
15:56:56 [nigel]
Cyril: Happy to help
15:57:38 [nigel]
Nigel: This was in the context of mapping data models entities between MP4 and MSE,
15:57:45 [nigel]
.. for things that may or may not be the same!
15:58:00 [nigel]
Topic: AOB - Next meeting
15:58:22 [nigel]
Nigel: Next meeting is 2025-06-19 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/309
15:58:31 [nigel]
Topic: Meeting close
15:59:17 [nigel]
Nigel: Thanks everyone [adjourns meeting]
15:59:20 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:10:55 [nigel]
s/have a problem removing the feature section/have a problem removing the feature extension
16:12:03 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:12:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:12:30 [nigel]
scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:12:35 [nigel]
zakim, end meeting
16:12:35 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Chris_Needham, Pierre, Atsushi, Cyril
16:12:37 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:12:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-tt-minutes.html Zakim
16:12:44 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
16:12:44 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tt
16:18:17 [nigel]
rrsagent, excuse us
16:18:17 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items