14:59:12 RRSAgent has joined #tt 14:59:17 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-tt-irc 14:59:17 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:59:18 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 14:59:31 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/309 14:59:36 Present: Nigel 14:59:41 Regrets: Gary, Andreas 14:59:54 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/06/05-tt-minutes.html 14:59:56 scribe: nigel 15:00:02 rrsagent, make minutes 15:00:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:00:13 Chair: Nigel 15:02:20 present+ Chris_Needham 15:04:22 present+ Pierre 15:05:05 present+ Atsushi 15:05:11 Topic: This meeting 15:06:08 cpn has joined #tt 15:06:13 present+ Chris_Needham 15:06:17 scribe+ cpn 15:06:49 Nigel: (Reviews the agenda) Anything else to cover? 15:06:56 (nothing) 15:07:11 Topic: IMSC 1.3 15:07:45 Nigel: Can we fix the PR preview? 15:08:12 Atsushi: I checked the configuration but didn't find any error 15:09:12 Nigel: Please continue 15:10:20 Nigel: Is the namespace work all done? 15:10:39 Atsushi: I've changed it in CVS and have opened a different PR but I'm not sure who will review it. 15:10:47 Nigel: OK, so there's some work to do to finish this. 15:10:54 DAPT is on CVS (www) -> https://github.com/w3c/ns/pull/4#issuecomment-2982203887 15:12:21 present+ Cyril 15:12:37 Atsushi: I will work on IMSC namespace documents in the same way 15:12:50 Subtopic: Drop Image Profile 15:13:27 Nigel: Last meeting, and in email, I sent a CfC to drop image profile, based on the feedback we've had 15:13:42 ... There's a specific proposal 15:13:53 PROPOSAL: Remove Image Profile from IMSC 1.3 and create an IMSC 1.3 Text Profile as a standalone document 15:14:25 Nigel: No comments or objections received, so I'd like to mark this as a resolution 15:14:35 ... Last chance for any comments... 15:14:39 RESOLUTION: Remove Image Profile from IMSC 1.3 and create an IMSC 1.3 Text Profile as a standalone document 15:15:17 Nigel: Looking at PR imsc#603, thank you for Pierre for all the work. I've reviewed, it looks good 15:16:09 Pierre: There is one thing. Your last comment on divs with id attributes. One thing PNG did, preserve links to the undated version of the IMSC url 15:16:54 ... If some has a link to a fragment in IMSC 1.2 using the undated link, if it's a link to an image profile provision, it will link to the explanation that the IMSC profile has been removed 15:17:08 ... It's not completely foolproof, but not a bad practice 15:17:19 ... I can add an HTML comment to explain why they're there 15:17:27 Nigel: That's neat, good idea to add a comment 15:18:16 Pierre: I followed the PNG spec as an example 15:18:55 Nigel: The thing is, you'd want it before the heading of the section, otherwise it might scroll the heading out of view. I guess it makes sense 15:19:08 ... Anything else to discuss? 15:19:32 Pierre: Other things are minor, I'm accepting your comments now. I think we're good for FPWD 15:20:12 ... The comment about reordering things in a section, I'll create a separate issue, it's not related to removing image profile, so can address with other editorial improvements for FPWD 15:20:24 Nigel: The table formatting is probably the most significant, it's now difficult to look at 15:20:56 Pierre: I tried a couple of things, I lean towards making it as close to the previous IMSC version as we can, in case we put image profile back 15:21:03 ... I've tried to remove without refactoring as much as possible 15:21:28 Nigel: About the CSS styles, though 15:21:43 Pierre: Yes, we should look at that after FPWD 15:22:02 Nigel: I dealt with this in DAPT, so have a look at the DAPT source and you could copy that 15:22:46 ... There's a style section at the top of the document that adds table styling. I think it might be that 15:22:55 Pierre: Ok, I'll take care of that 15:23:42 Nigel: Another thing was dark mode, I found it's changed underneath me so have had to take action to fix it 15:24:01 Pierre: Should we merge this today and set a date for FPWD, e.g., in 2 weeks? 15:24:34 Nigel: We agreed to remove image profile, it's been open more than 2 weeks, has approval, so meets our process requirements 15:24:44 ... I'll re-review and approve, then we can merge 15:24:47 Pierre: Thanks 15:25:07 ... Do we need to run a CfC for FPWD? 15:25:16 Nigel: Let's do that 15:26:03 ... Looking at issues for IMSC 1.3, there's a response from APA, I have an action to include only one text example document with example rendering 15:26:23 ... There's one more issue about force display and visibility hidden. Do we do that in FPWD or not? 15:27:27 ... We can still do FPWD if there are changes to make later 15:27:31 Pierre: Absolutely 15:27:47 Nigel: After merging, we should check the status of the other PR and close if already done 15:27:56 ... Did you look at the respec reference issues? 15:28:07 Pierre: Yes, just a case of refreshing windows, there's caching going on 15:28:28 ... There are lots of errors when you first load, then they go away on refresh. Same when opening locally 15:29:15 Nigel: So the action is for me to run a CfC to publish IMSC1.3 as FPWD, once this is merged 15:29:20 ... Anything else on IMSC 15:29:26 (nothing) 15:29:33 Topic: DAPT 15:29:45 Subtopic: Test Suite 15:30:06 Nigel: I've made some good progress. I pushed structural stuff to the test suite, license, readme, etc 15:30:21 ... Also, for all the issues in the DAPT tests repo that I could, I opened PRs to add tests 15:31:00 .... In the past, for IMSC HRM, rather than reviewing 1 by 1, we put all the tests in a repo and asked if there are any issues with that 15:31:20 ... Could do that again. I'd like a branch with all those PRs in it so I can work on a validator 15:31:54 Cyril: I don't have a problem if you merge all the PRs 15:32:03 Nigel: I'll do that, it makes things easier 15:32:51 Subtopic: Required #xmlId-div doesn't match other spec text w3c/dapt#297 15:33:02 github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/297 15:33:16 Nigel: We've discussed before, but it's now a pain 15:33:29 ... We considered some way of identifying if a div is a script event but didn't agree anything 15:33:59 ... xmlId-div has disposition required. Because we don't have a way to scope it to a script event, it applies to all divs 15:34:17 ... But the spec is clear elsewhere that they don't have to have xmlId 15:35:09 ... So you can't create tests with xmlId. I think we don't need this extension feature. All the normative requirements we need are in the script event mapping feature, so I propose removing xmlId-div 15:35:18 ... I created a PR to show what that looks like. Any thoughts? 15:35:46 Cyril: Your proposal sounds fine, I don't have a problem removing the feature section 15:36:11 ... Still not convinced by requiring the xmlId on divs to identify that a div represents a script event 15:36:29 Nigel: It doesn't do that, it doesn't say every div with an xmlId has to be a script event. 15:36:36 Cyril: So how to identify a script event? 15:36:58 Nigel: I think the script event mapping says that if it's a div with xmlId and no child divs, it's a script event 15:37:28 Cyril: I don't feel comfortable, I'd rather have a script event id or something 15:37:51 Nigel: We can still propose if it's useful. My sense is that there isn't a problem that needs solving with this 15:38:00 ... But could leave to implementation experience 15:38:14 Cyril: No objection to remove the feature itself. Can approve the PR 15:38:30 Nigel: Once we merge the PR to remove the feature, that unblocks adding those tests 15:38:41 ... Any other thoughts on this? 15:38:49 (nothing) 15:38:51 SUMMARY: Follow usual PR process to merge the PR and close the issue if no objections 15:39:33 Subtopic: Rename #scriptRepresents to #scriptRepresents-root? w3c/dapt#296 15:39:42 github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/296 15:40:20 Nigel: This renaming is a consistency thing. When there's an extension feature that relates to a particular element, we include the element name 15:40:35 ... This one is an odd one out. So it's an editorial change to rename it 15:40:41 Cyril: Agree 15:40:58 Nigel: Anyone else? 15:41:02 (nothing) 15:41:09 SUMMARY: @nigelmegitt to change the name as per the issue - editorial change 15:41:54 Subtopic: Should we allow Represents on Text objects? w3c/dapt#295 15:42:03 github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/295 15:42:52 Nigel: This came out of #294 where Andreas and Cyril pointed out that this isn't allowed in the model. But I think may be it should. 15:43:34 ... Can one script event contain text that represents different things. For example, in audio description would you put one script event that both describes something in the image and reads some on-screen text 15:43:53 ... If there's limited time available. Would you do that for any transcription or dubbing workflows? 15:44:16 ... It seemed a good idea at the time, but I'm less sure now 15:45:11 Cyril: Trying to remember the use cases I had where Represents is useful on a span. In Netflix content we have annotations that we put at the div level when they're actually span level 15:45:36 ... For example, one annotation is when speakers are saying the title of the movie in the movie. When you translate it, you want it to be consistent 15:46:22 ... It would be dialog.mainTitle or something like that. But I thought we needed to highlight which part of the script event, as it's a smaller granularity 15:46:39 Nigel: So we think there is a use cases, and would make it easier if we do this 15:46:46 ... Should we open a PR for it? 15:47:37 Cyril: We should discuss, if you put Represents on the span part, why not create two or three span parts and put on each? You could have one script event with the entire text of the script, if you don't care about timing, and do Represents at the span level 15:47:58 ... Don't want to encourage that. Maybe we should include some guidance to split the events first 15:48:53 Nigel: I agree, this is there if you have to use it. If you want some continuously flowing representation of a script, e.g., a recording, and you can't predict the timings, there could be a disjoint at the script event level when you play it back, because you didn't get the timing exactly right 15:49:14 ... Makes sense to add guidance 15:49:33 ... Any other thoughts on this? 15:49:40 (nothing) 15:50:53 Nigel: This unlocks PR #294. Andreas sent me a message to say he's happy with the solution in #294. He hasn't approved the PR though 15:51:16 ... If we can approve #294 it gives a good basis to resolve the other issue. 15:51:52 Cyril: I'll check. I don't see a problem approving it 15:52:00 Nigel: Thanks, that would be helpful 15:52:15 SUMMARY: @nigelmegitt to open a pull request for this 15:52:44 Topic: TPAC 2025 planning 15:53:17 Nigel: We discussed with APA WG and have requested joint meetings with them and MEIG 15:53:31 three meeting entries for now -> https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-meetings/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20timed%20text 15:53:50 ... I didn't know what to do with the AD CG. There could be a joint meeting with TTWG to look at DAPT and status of implementation issues 15:54:28 ... I sent email to the CG. I suggested it for the Monday and Tuesday. My request to members is to focus on the beginning of the week so people don't have to stay longer than needed 15:54:39 ... It's a good time to talk about user groups as well 15:55:17 ... Speaking of which, there's a CCSUBS meeting on Thursday next week. DAPT is on the agenda,15 minutes to talk about user groups 15:55:48 Chris: I think it's good you're organising around the Monday and Tuesday. 15:56:01 .. MediaWG is organising around the Thursday and Friday so there should be no overlap 15:56:05 .. for those who want to attend both. 15:56:42 .. Cyril, I may send you an email about timed text tracks in MP4 because MediaWG 15:56:52 .. had a whole discussion about this and needed more expertise. 15:56:56 Cyril: Happy to help 15:57:38 Nigel: This was in the context of mapping data models entities between MP4 and MSE, 15:57:45 .. for things that may or may not be the same! 15:58:00 Topic: AOB - Next meeting 15:58:22 Nigel: Next meeting is 2025-06-19 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/309 15:58:31 Topic: Meeting close 15:59:17 Nigel: Thanks everyone [adjourns meeting] 15:59:20 rrsagent, make minutes 15:59:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:10:55 s/have a problem removing the feature section/have a problem removing the feature extension 16:12:03 rrsagent, make minutes 16:12:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:12:30 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:12:35 zakim, end meeting 16:12:35 As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Chris_Needham, Pierre, Atsushi, Cyril 16:12:37 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:12:38 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:12:44 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:12:44 Zakim has left #tt 16:18:17 rrsagent, excuse us 16:18:17 I see no action items