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15:56:16 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-rdf-star-irc
15:56:25 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/40c79d60-8147-4da7-8185-c39434216daf/20250619T120000/
15:56:25 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:56:25 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/06/05-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2025/06/12-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:56:25 <agendabot> agenda+ TPAC 2025
15:56:25 <agendabot> agenda+ Proposal for next week's discussion
15:56:26 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
15:56:27 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
15:56:42 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
15:56:42 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
15:56:42 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue Triage, available at -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
15:56:44 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
15:58:03 <olaf> olaf has joined #rdf-star
15:58:18 <tl> tl has joined #rdf-star
16:00:16 <AndyS> present+
16:00:23 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
16:00:25 <olaf> present+
16:00:30 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
16:00:32 <draggett> draggett has joined #rdf-star
16:00:40 <draggett> present+
16:01:09 <niklasl> present+
16:01:30 <ora> present+
16:01:32 <AZ> present+
16:01:33 <ora> chair+
16:01:39 <ktk> present+
16:01:40 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
16:01:45 <olaf> scribe+
16:01:53 <pchampin> present+
16:02:19 <tl> present+
16:02:19 <gkellogg> present+
16:02:35 <ktk> regrets+ Dominik_T, fsasaki, gtw
16:03:15 <ktk> Zakim, open item 1
16:03:15 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/06/05-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2025/06/12-rdf-star-minutes.html --
16:03:18 <Zakim> ... taken up [from agendabot]
16:03:20 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
16:03:29 <james> james has joined #rdf-star
16:03:36 <james> present+
16:03:40 <olaf> ora: Comments about the minutes?
16:03:40 <james> q+
16:03:46 <ora> ack james
16:04:04 <olaf> james: I have a reservation abut the minutes
16:04:17 <olaf> ... there were remarks that reification can have semantics
16:04:48 <olaf> ... there were people in the past (Pat Hayse)
16:05:01 <tl> Pat Hayes said that they have semantics, just not normative ones
16:05:12 <olaf> ... who said that there are semantics
16:05:18 <tl> s/they have/ it has
16:05:38 <olaf> ora: fair enough
16:05:59 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:06:03 <Souri> present+
16:06:11 <olaf> ... Something else, there was a comment from pfps that he disagrees with pfps
16:06:20 <olaf> pfps: There is only one of me.
16:06:32 <olaf> ora: who did you disagree with?
16:07:03 <niklasl> In the minutes it is said that "the semantics of standard reification is just the semantics ascribed to properties and types - there is nothing more". I find that clear enough.
16:07:05 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
16:07:14 <AndyS> https://www.w3.org/2025/06/12-rdf-star-minutes.html#9df4
16:07:21 <enrico> present+
16:07:57 <olaf> pfps: Not clear from the minutes who was talking about "that"
16:08:06 <olaf> ... Ah, it must be tl
16:08:26 <olaf> ... who I disagreed with
16:08:43 <olaf> ora: can pchampin please make a correction
16:08:46 <ora> PROPOSAL: Approve minutes of last two meetings.
16:08:49 <gkellogg> +1
16:08:51 <AndyS> +1
16:08:53 <olaf> +1
16:08:54 <ktk> +1
16:08:54 <enrico> +1
16:08:55 <james> +1
16:08:55 <pfps> +1 with changes discussed
16:08:57 <tl> +1
16:08:58 <pchampin> +1
16:08:59 <niklasl> +1
16:09:01 <ora> +0.5 (I was there only for one of the meetings)
16:09:04 <Souri> +1
16:09:07 <AZ> +1
16:09:32 <ora> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of last two meetings.
16:09:36 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:09:36 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- TPAC 2025 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:10:03 <olaf> ora: Tomorrow is the deadline to inform W3C whether we want to have a F2F at TPAC
16:10:16 <olaf> ... which will be in Japan, the week after ISWC
16:10:27 <olaf> ... also geographically close
16:10:40 <olaf> ktk: 1 hr by train
16:10:54 <olaf> ora: I think there is no harm of requesting a slot
16:11:07 <ora> q?
16:11:09 <olaf> ... I cannot guarantee to be there
16:11:47 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
16:11:48 <olaf> ktk: whichever time we pick, either people from Europe or Americas are screwed
16:11:55 <enrico> Present+
16:12:17 <olaf> ktk: Should we take two half-day slots on different days?
16:12:44 <olaf> ora: How long are the slots? 1.5 hrs?
16:12:44 <olaf> ktk: longer, I think
16:13:03 <olaf> ora: We can choose any number of slots, but they are given in 1.5 hrs increments
16:13:23 <olaf> ... I suggest we pick two slots
16:13:37 <olaf> ktk: Do we need to give preferences for slots?
16:13:42 <olaf> pchampin: yes
16:14:00 <olaf> ktk: I would prefer slots closer to the end of ISWC
16:14:29 <enrico> I will be at ISWC  and I can be at TPAC
16:14:44 <olaf> ora: We will have people in Europe and in the US who will not come.
16:15:08 <olaf> ktk: Then, maybe two slots, with one being better for Europe and one better for the US
16:15:25 <olaf> ora: Are there any other preferences for the days?
16:16:13 <olaf> gkellogg: We also need to note in the meeting requests the groups we don't want to overlap with
16:16:29 <olaf> ora: data shapes group, and JSON-LD group, others?
16:16:53 <olaf> gkellogg: Verifiable Credentials group
16:17:06 <olaf> ... (?)
16:17:28 <olaf> ora: How's about request two slots, and we mark all Tuesday slots as possible?
16:17:38 <olaf> ... Any objections?
16:17:41 <gkellogg> s/(?)/Web of Things WG/
16:17:45 <olaf> ... Hearing none.
16:17:59 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:17:59 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Proposal for next week's discussion -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:17:59 <olaf> ... I will submit the form after this meeting.
16:18:28 <olaf> ora: We have some left-over topics from last time
16:18:45 <olaf> ktk: and clean up the needs-discussion tag
16:19:00 <ktk> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/163
16:19:00 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/163 -> Issue 163 extract the "basic-encoding" (formerly unstar) algorithm from RDF-Concepts into a Note (by pchampin) [needs discussion]
16:19:35 <olaf> pchampin: about #163, I created a PR
16:19:35 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/163 -> Issue 163 extract the "basic-encoding" (formerly unstar) algorithm from RDF-Concepts into a Note (by pchampin) [needs discussion]
16:19:52 <olaf> ... We can close this issue.
16:20:06 <ktk> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/164
16:20:07 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/164 -> Issue 164 make progress on test suites to move to CR (by pchampin) [needs discussion]
16:20:22 <AndyS> +1
16:20:24 <AndyS> q+
16:20:40 <ora> ack AndyS
16:20:43 <olaf> ktk: We can remove 'needs discussion' but should the issue remain open?
16:21:02 <olaf> AndyS: This was more a placeholder what we need for CR for the first batch of docs.
16:21:14 <olaf> ... tests is one of the things to do.
16:21:32 <gkellogg> q+
16:21:37 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:21:50 <olaf> ktk: Should we have a discussion what else we need for CR?
16:22:20 <olaf> gkellogg: Regarding the tests, we need to discuss what type of tests we want. What our goal is.
16:22:41 <olaf> ... with regards to covering all normative statements of the specs.
16:23:25 <olaf> ora: These two issues seem enough for a meeting.
16:24:06 <olaf> ktk: I will open another issues to discuss what else is needed for CR.
16:24:21 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:24:21 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:24:32 <olaf> ktk: And we can also work on cleaning up the open issues.
16:24:51 <olaf> ora: What happened to Appendix D?
16:25:37 <ktk> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/148
16:25:38 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/148 -> Action 148 delete reification subsection from appendix D of semantics spec (on franconi) due 2025-03-07
16:25:54 <enrico> enrico has joined #RDF-star
16:26:10 <enrico> Present+
16:26:39 <olaf> enrico: This was given to Dörthe, right?
16:26:48 <olaf> ora: And she is not here.
16:27:12 <james4> james4 has joined #rdf-star
16:27:14 <olaf> enrico: I looked at it, but Dörthe should have (?)
16:27:18 <niklasl> q+
16:27:27 <ora> ack niklasl
16:28:04 <olaf> niklasl: Domenique has things on RDF schema
16:28:11 <gkellogg> q+ on https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/115
16:28:12 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/115 -> Action 115 add tests for entailment of triple terms (on gkellogg, pchampin)
16:28:17 <olaf> ... We should do a coordinated action
16:28:21 <niklasl> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/45
16:28:22 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/45 -> Issue 45 Acknowledge the two purposes of this document (by pchampin) [spec:enhancement]
16:28:41 <niklasl> .. https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/85
16:28:42 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/85 -> Issue 85 remove informative section about reification, collections, and containers from Semantics (by pfps) [spec:editorial]
16:29:19 <olaf> ora: I assume that nothing has happened on this.
16:29:45 <enrico> enrico has joined #RDF-star
16:29:54 <olaf> ... We needed a plan of how things are going to be reorganized, and Domenique was supposed to make such a plan, but he is not here today.
16:29:55 <enrico> Present+
16:30:07 <olaf> AndyS: I has come up with a plan.
16:30:21 <pchampin> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/45#issuecomment-2972710980
16:30:22 <olaf> ... which is primarily about RDF Schema
16:30:39 <olaf> s/I has/He has/
16:31:10 <olaf> pchampin: he has cut it in separate pieces, which are all documented in the issue
16:31:24 <olaf> ... I haven't looked at it.
16:31:43 <olaf> ora: Should all these commits become separate PRs?
16:31:48 <niklasl> +1 for PRs of them (_maybe_ to a final proposal branch, since they perhaps interrelate...)
16:31:58 <olaf> pchampin: Again, I haven't looked at it.
16:32:15 <olaf> gkellogg: There seem to be changes that are there to make rebasing easier.
16:32:42 <olaf> ... But I suggest we create PR with all of these commits included.
16:32:52 <olaf> ora: Sounds fine to me.
16:33:05 <olaf> ... Does anyone wants to take this on?
16:33:16 <olaf> gkellogg: It is Domenique's issue
16:33:17 <ktk> s/Domenique/Dominik/
16:33:23 <pchampin> q+
16:33:28 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:33:28 <Zakim> gkellogg, you wanted to comment on https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/115
16:33:45 <olaf> ... The next step is to create a PR based on these commits.
16:33:52 <olaf> ... Which is for Dominik to do.
16:34:21 <olaf> gkellogg: I have updated some of the test.
16:34:39 <olaf> ... enough to satisfy this action
16:35:24 <olaf> ktk: Add it explicitly to the issue.
16:35:27 <ora> ack pchampin
16:35:55 <olaf> pchampin: About the RDF Schema thing, my reading is that Dominik is reacting to the pushback on his previous big PR
16:36:20 <olaf> ... So, let's be careful of not sending mixed messages.
16:37:08 <niklasl> q+
16:37:10 <olaf> ... This is a complicated thing, with lots of changes.
16:37:24 <olaf> ora: That's why I was thinking to have this as separate PRs.
16:37:38 <ora> ack niklasl
16:37:45 <olaf> pchampin: The only risk of having multiple PRs is that they create conflicts when being merged.
16:38:19 <olaf> niklasl: Dominik wrote that, if these changes are okay, then he would make a big PR.
16:38:49 <olaf> ktk: There is also the 'squash commits' option
16:39:14 <olaf> niklasl: doing it piecemeal might be better because of cross-references
16:40:04 <olaf> gkellogg: The problem was that the changes are combination of structure and content.
16:40:16 <olaf> ora: What ever makes it easier for folks to review.
16:40:25 <olaf> ... I like niklasl's idea
16:40:42 <olaf> ... Important thing is that we have a look at it and can understand what is about to happen.
16:41:35 <olaf> ... As Dominik has done the work we asked him to do, we should also ask him what he thinks is the best next step.
16:41:55 <olaf> ... I would like to get this accomplished.
16:42:33 <olaf> ... Why don't we assign this to Dominik, and next week we can see where we are.
16:43:05 <olaf> ktk: What is "this" here?
16:43:27 <olaf> ora: Is this still about removing Appendix D?
16:43:49 <olaf> pchampin: No, Dominik is working on RDF Schema.
16:44:02 <ktk> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/162
16:44:03 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/162 -> Action 162 make a proposal for a new plan on RDF-schema, per w3c/rdf-schema/45 (on domel) due 2025-06-12
16:44:06 <olaf> ... once that is done, the Appendix can be moved.
16:44:45 <olaf> ktk: Okay, then the right issue is already assigned to Dominik.
16:45:48 <olaf> ora: Our desire here is for Dominik to construct the PR.
16:45:57 <olaf> ktk: or a branch?
16:46:21 <olaf> gkellogg: If we want people to review it, it needs to be in a PR.
16:46:45 <olaf> niklasl: I added a comment in the issue.
16:46:47 <niklasl> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/45#issuecomment-2988672512
16:46:48 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/45 -> Issue 45 Acknowledge the two purposes of this document (by pchampin) [spec:enhancement]
16:47:12 <niklasl> > Would it help to create a "final changes" branch and make PRs from these already created branches to that one? That might help out in reviewing each small PR (without merging them to main until all have been reviewed).
16:47:23 <olaf> ora: The test for entailment are sufficient?
16:47:55 <olaf> gkellogg: The tests that are there use the old syntax. I changed them to make them consistent with the new syntax.
16:47:56 <pchampin> FWIW, I'm planning to review these tests, soon-ish
16:48:12 <olaf> ... That's a reasonable place to start, and we can always add more tests.
16:48:27 <niklasl> q+
16:48:30 <olaf> ora: What about the owlification?
16:48:33 <ktk> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/150
16:48:34 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/150 -> Action 150 Create note on triple term owlification (on niklasl) due 2025-03-07
16:48:48 <ktk> ack niklasl
16:49:05 <olaf> niklasl: I made some progress and I am very happy to see pchampin's interop repo
16:49:18 <olaf> ... to see whether it makes sense to integrate it there.
16:49:30 <pchampin> the repo niklasl is mentioning is: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-interop
16:49:30 <olaf> ... Will look further into it.
16:49:37 <niklasl> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/170
16:49:38 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/170 -> Issue 170 Decide names and IRIs for type and constituent properties of basic-encoded triple terms (by niklasl) [needs discussion]
16:49:53 <pchampin> q+
16:49:54 <olaf> ... But I cannot move an issue to that repo.
16:50:01 <ora> ack pchampin
16:50:17 <olaf> pchampin: Do you suggest to move that issue to rdf-interop?
16:50:22 <olaf> niklasl: yes
16:50:28 <olaf> pchampin: makes sense
16:50:49 <olaf> ... I propose to move the issue, unless anyone objects
16:50:56 <olaf> ... No objection!
16:51:20 <pchampin> q+
<ora> subtopic: w3c/rdf-star-wg#159
16:51:21 <olaf> ora: I haven't done my action (159) but try to get it done before the end of the week.
16:51:36 <ora> ack pchampin
<pchampin> subtopic: w3c/rdf-star#55
16:52:05 <olaf> pchampin: The Echidna issue on rdf-primer is fixed now.
<pchampin> subtopic: w3c/rdf-star#168
16:53:21 <olaf> pchampin: There is a PR on Concepts to remove the appendix about unstar, and rdf-interop contains a Note with this content
16:53:43 <olaf> gkellogg: We have to add this to the list of documents that we have in common repo.
16:53:55 <olaf> pchampin: Good point!
16:54:22 <olaf> ... I will do it.
16:54:32 <pchampin> action: pchampin to add rdf-interop to rdf-common, and propagate that to other repos
16:54:34 <gb> Created -> action #168 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/168
<ora> topic: Review of pull requests, available at [4](https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4)
16:54:36 <olaf> ora: Let's look at the PRs.
16:54:38 <gkellogg> q+
16:54:41 <olaf> q+
16:55:07 <niklasl> q+
16:55:21 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:55:40 <ora> ack olaf
<gkellog> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-triples/pull/58
16:55:44 <olaf> gkellogg: The version announcement is something that we need to decide. It affects the tests.
16:56:23 <pchampin> subtopic: w3c/sparql-query#221 and w3c/sparql-query#227
16:56:23 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/pull/221 -> Pull Request 221 Consider bnode graph names in evaluation of Graph (by hartig)
16:56:23 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/pull/227 -> Pull Request 227 Adds explicit definition of the algebraic syntax (by hartig)
16:55:48 <pchampin> scribe+
16:56:02 <pchampin> olaf: I have two PRs on sparql-query that have been opened for a long time
16:56:08 <pchampin> ... AndyS, do you still want to look at them?
16:57:07 <pchampin> AndyS: does not look controversial
16:57:14 <ora> ack niklasl
<niklas> subtopic: dark mode in Respec
16:57:32 <olaf> niklasl: There is slow progress on the dark mode related PR.
16:57:35 <pchampin> scribe-
16:57:54 <olaf> ... It gives me some insights of what os possible in respec and what now.
16:58:13 <olaf> ... I have coordinated with the highlight-js repo.
16:58:22 <olaf> ... I haven't given up yet.
16:59:06 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:59:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:59:09 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:59:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:59:18 <ktk> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:00:13 <olaf> olaf has left #rdf-star
17:01:54 <pchampin> meeting: RDF & SPARQL WG
17:02:03 <pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/06/12-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:02:11 <pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/06/26-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:02:14 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:02:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:02:37 <ktk> s/abut/about/
17:02:37 <ktk> s/Pat Hayse/Pat Hayes/
17:02:37 <ktk> s/How's about/How about/
17:02:37 <ktk> s/then, maybe/then maybe/
17:02:37 <ktk> s/placeholder what we need/placeholder for what we need/
17:02:39 <ktk> s/Does anyone wants to/Does anyone want to/
17:02:42 <ktk> s/what os possible/what is possible/
17:02:55 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:02:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/19-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk