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13:01:41 <shiestyle> zakim, start the meeting
13:01:41 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:01:43 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
13:01:46 <gpellegrino> present+
13:01:49 <wendyreid> present+
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13:02:04 <Hadrien> present+
13:02:19 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:02:25 <shiestyle> present+
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13:03:00 <George> present+
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13:03:15 <duga> scribe+
13:03:31 <wendyreid> Topic: Scrolled Comics
13:03:49 <duga> wendyreid: first topic is scrolled comics - over to shiestyle
13:04:38 <mgarrish> present+
13:04:39 <duga> shiestyle: Our TF discussed specs for scrolled comics
13:05:00 <duga> ... we already have webtoons formats in Japan, but the current style isn't good for the specs
13:05:16 <duga> ... so we need to determine how to define webtoons in the specs
13:05:34 <duga> ... so today we will present two proposals
13:06:04 <duga> ... first, we have rendition-scrolled [is that the right one?]
13:06:10 <Hadrien> q+
13:06:16 <duga> ... we will add a new value
13:06:59 <duga> ... we did not have a strong oposition to rendition-layout: scrolled
13:07:30 <duga> ... we want both new and existing features to be valid
13:07:30 <wendyreid> q+
13:07:39 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:07:47 <duga> ... so we want to update the note like this
13:08:14 <duga> Hadrien: Voyager Japan sent an email that was very supportive regarding that approach
13:08:51 <duga> ... I think this concept that we add a new thing while acknowledging the old this is consistent with the way we have done this before (e.g. fixed layout)
13:09:34 <duga> ... So mention the old way, but encourage the new way for implementation consistency
13:09:42 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:09:48 <shiestyle> ack wendyreid
13:10:03 <duga> wendyreid: What is the fallback scheme?
13:10:07 <Hadrien> q+
13:10:28 <duga> ... if we get a book with rendition-layout: scrolled? Most RS would fall back to reflow
13:10:49 <duga> ... should we have some sort of fallback?
13:11:02 <duga> ... Maybe a fallback rendition-layout value?
13:11:05 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:11:42 <duga> Hadrien: I have done some testing, first the way the current style works, and they generally just show as fxl
13:11:46 <duga> ... which is really bad
13:12:05 <duga> ... I then tried the new way and it falls back to flowing, which is also bad
13:12:12 <SueNeu> q+
13:12:29 <duga> ... we are asking for a new mode
13:12:41 <duga> ... if a RS doesn't have it there isn't much to do
13:12:46 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
13:12:50 <duga> q+
13:13:00 <wendyreid> scribe+
13:13:23 <duga> SueNeu: If we decide on a fallback mode maybe ask for pagination from the contet creators
13:13:31 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:13:34 <duga> ... not great but better than reflow
13:14:14 <wendyreid> duga: I'm not sure how feasible that would be, there is actually a company that does this, they make money off paginating webtoons, it's not trivial
13:14:27 <wendyreid> ... it would be nice if every webtoon had an alternative that did this.
13:15:03 <wendyreid> ... question I had is what is the mandated behaviour of rendition:layout if it's unknown?
13:15:14 <wendyreid> ... are we supposed to assume its reflow?
13:15:34 <wendyreid> Hadrien: In my testing its treated as reflow
13:15:45 <shiestyle> q+
13:15:51 <duga> wendyreid: I am checking now
13:16:08 <duga> ... "must use one of the following"
13:16:19 <duga> ... reflowable is the default
13:16:24 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
13:17:02 <duga> shiestyle: Japanese publishers just won't sell them on platforms where it doesn't work
13:17:16 <SueNeu> q+
13:17:21 <wendyreid> ack Su
13:17:30 <Hadrien> q+
13:17:39 <duga> SueNeu: How does this relate to panel by panel navigation?
13:17:47 <wendyreid> ack Ha
13:17:48 <duga> ... will webtoons do that?
13:18:12 <duga> Hadrien: I would argue it isn't really necessary since the content was designed for phones
13:18:30 <duga> ... panel to panel is helpful for reading things on smaller devices
13:18:40 <duga> ... Also maybe for a11y
13:19:01 <duga> ... And as far as I am aware panel to panel in Amazon is proprietary
13:19:34 <duga> ... And as shiestyle said, just not providing content is probably fine
13:19:51 <duga> ... and at some point we should talk to Editour and get the property added
13:20:01 <duga> ... so the content can be filtered out
13:20:22 <duga> wendyreid: We should get a PR so we can see it in place
13:20:39 <duga> ... shiestyle, Hadrien, can you work with Matt to get this done?
13:21:01 <duga> Hadrien: Sure we will have a PR ready before the next TF report to this group
13:21:11 <wendyreid> Topic: EPUB to ISO
13:21:14 <duga> wendyreid: Our other topic was ISO
13:21:22 <gpellegrino> q+
13:22:04 <duga> ... we want to take EPUB 3.3 to ISO. There are other groups that want it ASAP. ISO is still on 3.0.1
13:22:13 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:22:48 <duga> gpellegrino: As you may recall we asked for the group to wait on this until the EU a11y legislation was done
13:23:27 <duga> ... If we go to ISO then it will be adopted by the EU, so it will be a different spec than the one publishers are using
13:23:53 <duga> ... so we made an arrangement for them to reference the W3C version
13:24:32 <duga> ... so the European commission did not require the ICT version
13:24:57 <duga> ... This was supposed to be in place in a couple of weeks, but WCAG is delayed until next year
13:25:09 <duga> ... so I would request that we wait
13:25:11 <gpellegrino> q+
13:25:21 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:25:32 <duga> wendyreid: Can't they do whatever they want?
13:25:55 <duga> gpellegrino: The ICT is just a reference and the EC will endorse it
13:26:06 <duga> wendyreid: How long are they going to make us wait?
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13:26:16 <mgarrish> q+
13:26:21 <wendyreid> ack mg
13:26:36 <duga> mgarrish: Can we split it up?
13:26:55 <duga> ... then we can push at least EPUB 3.3, but delay a11y spec?
13:27:37 <duga> wendyreid: Is this ICP thing for a11y 1.1 and epub 3.3?
13:27:50 <wendyreid> s/ICP/ICT/
13:28:04 <duga> gpellegrino: We presented a11y 1.1, epub 3.3., and RS 3.3, so they may point at those as well
13:28:14 <duga> wendyreid: This is very awkward
13:28:45 <duga> ... If we go to ISO, one option is they could just keep going with the current path
13:29:02 <duga> ... will they decide to change what they are pointint at?
13:29:38 <duga> Leonard: They can do whatever, but that doesn't mean they will
13:30:19 <duga> wendyreid: So are we really worried about going to ISO, and they will change what they are using?
13:30:32 <shiestyle> present+ Leonard Rosenthol
13:30:55 <duga> Leonard: They do have to make changes by agreement with the committees involved
13:31:03 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:31:05 <gpellegrino> q+
13:31:19 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:31:31 <duga> wendyreid: I want to understand what is technically possible vs what will actually happen
13:31:57 <SueNeu> q+
13:31:59 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
13:32:12 <duga> gpellegrino: They decided not to keep the mandate to make a new European standard
13:32:52 <duga> AvneeshSingh: ISO is a kind of trigger, and historically we have had trouble keeping European standards in line with us
13:33:22 <duga> ... so we really don't want to have to open a new can of worms
13:33:37 <George> q+
13:33:39 <duga> ... gpellegrino what are your thoughts on the previous efforts here?
13:33:42 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
13:34:39 <SueNeu> q+
13:34:43 <wendyreid> ack George
13:34:45 <duga> gpellegrino: Even with that huge effort (EU version of WCAG), it isn't in a great
13:34:49 <duga> ... place
13:34:57 <duga> AvneeshSingh: And we are smaller than the web
13:35:14 <wendyreid> q+
13:35:28 <duga> George: After [date I missed], there is an existing default standard that will be in place
13:35:58 <duga> ... If we wait a little while before going to ISO, the more it establishes the existing defacto standard
13:36:12 <duga> ... Once we have that we should be able to go to ISO
13:36:42 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
13:36:50 <duga> ... I can't imagine at that point going to ISO would cause a harmonized spec to trigger
13:37:04 <duga> SueNeu: Is this a place where backwards compat will help us?
13:37:14 <duga> ... Since their older books will still be usable
13:37:48 <duga> ... I am not sure of the utility of waiting if everything is backwards compatible. What would happen if we went to ISO with 3.3?
13:37:56 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:38:01 <gpellegrino> s/... This was supposed to be in place in a couple of weeks, but WCAG is delayed until next year/... the EAA will go into effect in two weeks, but as of yet there is no committee request to reference EPUB standards as ICT Technical Specification/
13:38:02 <duga> ... Will this require new things of publishers?
13:38:20 <duga> wendyreid: The prime example is WCAG and EN3459
13:38:47 <duga> ... For instance the EN spec covers a lot more than the web, web is just one chapter
13:39:18 <gpellegrino> 1+
13:39:18 <duga> wendyreid: But I got on the queue to say we are using the PATH approach to going to ISO
13:39:20 <gpellegrino> q+
13:39:38 <duga> ... so there isn't much room to change things (just minor termiology)
13:39:50 <duga> ... This is per agreement between ISO ad W3C
13:40:19 <duga> ... so I don't think we need to worry that it will cause a change anything substantively
13:40:36 <duga> ... But all we have been hearing "just wait" with no timeline
13:40:51 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:40:57 <duga> ... And the rest of the world is on hold without even having a deadline
13:41:07 <duga> gpellegrino: two things on what may happen
13:41:38 <duga> ... First, they may require new metadata, and all content made now without it will cause all current epubs to fail
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13:42:37 <gpellegrino> s/They decided not to keep the mandate to make a new European standard/They decided to exclude e-book from the mandate to update EN 301 549/
13:42:49 <duga> wendyreid: I guess we are stuck waiting again
13:42:51 <duga> q+
13:42:56 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:43:10 <wendyreid> duga: Do we just set a reminder to ourselves to have this conversation again in 6 months, a year?
13:43:15 <gpellegrino> q+
13:43:20 <wendyreid> gpellegrino:
13:43:23 <wendyreid> ack plh
13:43:29 <wendyreid> ack gp
13:43:40 <duga> gpellegrino: I think TPAC is the right time to discuss again
13:44:07 <duga> shiestyle: Let's continue at TPAC
13:44:11 <wendyreid> Topic: AOB
13:44:15 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:44:22 <duga> q+
13:44:26 <wendyreid> ack Avne
13:44:55 <duga> AvneeshSingh: TPAC - when do we want to have the meeting? APA is already looking at their cross group meetings
13:45:25 <duga> ... DAISY will be having meetings on the 12th and 13th, so it would help to have dates ASAP
13:45:46 <duga> wendyreid: I have already requested the 10th and 11th, our typical Monday/Tuesday
13:45:51 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:46:03 <wendyreid> duga: What about the survey? Did we agree on the wording?
13:46:24 <duga> SueNeu: yes, we have agreed and we have the Japanese translation
13:46:37 <duga> ... And Ivan is working on it, though he is off
13:46:44 <SueNeu> q+
13:46:50 <CharlesL> q+
13:46:53 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
13:47:10 <duga> SueNeu: Which brings us to who we ae sending this to
13:47:20 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:47:42 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:47:44 <duga> CharlesL: and in addition, do we have the verbage for the email that links to the survey
13:47:59 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
13:48:04 <duga> wendyreid: We should have a wiki or doc to coordinate and propose text
13:48:06 <SueNeu> +1
13:48:40 <duga> AvneeshSingh: We will be sending out the inclusive publishing newsletter, so if it is ready then we can add it there
13:49:06 <duga> wendyreid: May SueNeu and I can work on setting up coordination for comms
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13:50:13 <shiestyle> rrsagent, make log public
13:50:35 <shiestyle> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:50:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/12-pmwg-minutes.html shiestyle
13:51:57 <shiestyle> present+ SueNeu
13:52:07 <shiestyle> present+ duga
13:52:15 <shiestyle> present+ duga
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13:52:25 <shiestyle> present+ toshiakikoike
13:52:54 <shiestyle> present+ LaurentLM
13:53:23 <shiestyle> Chair: wendyreid
13:53:41 <shiestyle> present+ Dale
13:53:51 <shiestyle> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:53:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/12-pmwg-minutes.html shiestyle
13:54:23 <shiestyle> zakim, end the meeting
13:54:23 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been gpellegrino, wendyreid, Hadrien, shiestyle, CharlesL, George, mgarrish, Leonard, Rosenthol, SueNeu, duga, toshiakikoike, LaurentLM, Dale
13:54:26 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
13:54:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/12-pmwg-minutes.html Zakim
13:54:33 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, shiestyle; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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