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16:50:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:50:33 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:50:38 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:50:38 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:51:07 <agendabot> Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
16:52:17 <jamesn> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2025Jun/0002.html
16:52:17 <agendabot> jamesn, sorry, could not get https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2025Jun/0002.html (code 429).
16:53:14 <jamesn> agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-05-29+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues)
16:53:14 <jamesn> agenda+ [WPT Open PRs](https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y)
16:53:14 <jamesn> agenda+ [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
16:53:14 <jamesn> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3ZsyKPo)
16:53:14 <jamesn> agenda+ TPAC Timing preferences & what groups do we need meetings with?
16:53:15 <jamesn> agenda+ [What to do about computed roles for table?](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/584)
16:58:58 <hdv> regrets+
16:59:26 <smockle> regrets+
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17:02:07 <giacomo-petri> present+
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17:02:28 <jamesn> present+
17:02:32 <aardrian> present+
17:02:34 <pkra> present+
17:02:35 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
17:02:49 <pkra> scribe+
17:02:52 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:02:52 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New PR Triage](https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-05-29+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:02:56 <scott> scott has joined #aria
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17:03:02 <katez> present+
17:03:17 <pkra> jamesn: first is editorial. do we have reviewers?
17:03:23 <Adam_Page> present+
17:03:56 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
17:03:58 <pkra> adrian: I'll take it
17:04:02 <StefanS> present+
17:04:27 <pkra> keith: me too
17:04:36 <pkra> jamesn: next ios mapping rows
17:04:51 <pkra> scott: it's TBD right now but wanted to get it in there so we can chip away.
17:05:21 <pkra> .. the big lift will be to do a matching change on core-aam
17:05:28 <pkra> spectranaut_: should I start a PR?
17:05:40 <pkra> scott: maybe one PR
17:06:22 <pkra> jamesn: several interesting question. How to set an example? Where are we getting the information this kind of info from?
17:06:44 <pkra> scott: rahim had been discussing this internally, that's where we started
17:06:50 <pkra> jamesn: how can we verify?
17:07:38 <pkra> scott: good question. Perhaps their inspector tool might be able to verify.
17:07:57 <pkra> jamesn: ok. what do we do about android?
17:08:08 <pkra> scott: needs someone from Android to step up like Apple did.
17:08:37 <pkra> cynth: I may have someone to bring in. Will check.
17:08:48 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:08:48 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [WPT Open PRs](https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:09:28 <pkra> jamesn: There's just one new one.
17:09:33 <pkra> scott: that just needs reviews and merge.
17:09:37 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:09:37 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, pkra
17:09:42 <pkra> zakim, close this item
17:09:42 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
17:09:43 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:09:43 <Zakim> 3. [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) [from jamesn]
17:09:43 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:09:44 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:10:55 <pkra> jamesn: we only have the table ones. We wanted to schedule this for July.
17:11:39 <pkra> giacomo-petri: I think Keith wanted to compare algorithms before we do this?
17:11:50 <jamesn> q?
17:11:54 <jamesn> agenda?
17:12:04 <pkra> keith: right. I've tried to build a kind of spec for it. It's a bit horrible.
17:12:16 <pkra> ... there are some significant discrepancies between engines.
17:12:28 <pkra> ... but perhaps it will still do some good.
17:12:40 <pkra> jamesn: should we schedule it?
17:13:09 <pkra> keith: let me finish the spec. It's a bit like a fourth implementation since it deviates from engines.
17:13:56 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:13:56 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3ZsyKPo) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:14:49 <pkra> jamesn: first is editorial, for editors meeting.
17:15:36 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:15:36 <pkra> ... next  html-aam 587. Sounds like one for Rahim.
17:15:43 <pkra> scott: yes, he already started on it.
17:15:49 <Matt_King> present+
17:15:58 <pkra> ... Steve had tried to do something way back when. Rahim will try to make a better section of it.
17:16:29 <pkra> jamesn: next html-aam #586.
17:17:03 <pkra> scott: this one tries to resolve "scoped to body" vagueness in the spec.
17:17:11 <pkra> ... for this.
17:17:37 <pkra> ... this should make things more consistent.
17:17:48 <pkra> jamesn: next html-aam 585
17:17:52 <pkra> ... on the agenda.
17:17:54 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:17:54 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- TPAC Timing preferences & what groups do we need meetings with? -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:18:19 <pkra> jamesn: we have to decide which days we want to meet. Chairs prefer early in the week.
17:18:33 <pkra> ... we try not to meet on Friday.
17:18:45 <pkra> ... ARIA on Mon&Tue, other meetings Wed&Thu is our preference.
17:19:09 <pkra> keith: would like to avoid conflicts with WHATWG and CSSWG.
17:19:28 <pkra> jamesn: right. CSSWG meets all week so that's usually not feasible.
17:19:33 <pkra> ... but we can try our best.
17:19:59 <pkra> ... other topic: which groups do we want to meet and what about?
17:20:16 <pkra> ... it's a short timeline: please get us something by the end of the week.
17:20:22 <pkra> ... just a subject and time estimate.
17:20:24 <aardrian> Tables. Put me down to talk about tables.
17:21:05 <pkra> ... group-aria-chairs@... will get it to the chairs.
17:21:15 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:21:15 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [What to do about computed roles for table?](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/584) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:22:02 <pkra> keith: tldr: chrome will give you non-standard roles when it detects a layout table.
17:22:25 <pkra> ... that's helpful for tests but it's non-standard. I presume it's a webdriver specific behavior.
17:22:42 <pkra> ... webkit gives an empty string, which I presume means presentation.
17:23:12 <pkra> ... firefox always does table and then attributes. That's also non-standard but all ATs use it.
17:23:38 <pkra> ... I think it would be great to have a role to test. But that also obviously seems problematic.
17:24:00 <aardrian> q+
17:24:01 <pkra> ... or talk to webdriver people to make things consistent there.
17:24:11 <scott> q+
17:24:16 <jamesn> ack aa
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17:24:40 <pkra> adrian: beyond engines, I know that JAWS has its own heuristics that are independent of user agents.
17:24:42 <jamesn> q+
17:25:10 <pkra> keith: that's very interesting. I admit I'm interested in it from the browser side.
17:25:36 <pkra> adrian: when we say AT, we're really only talking about screenreaders, since they are the AT that does something here.
17:25:54 <pkra> ... since they've done things before browsers did, it would be good to contact them
17:26:30 <pkra> keith: I don't disagree.
17:26:33 <jamesn> q?
17:26:42 <jamesn> ack scott
17:26:48 <pkra> adrian: caveat, I havent' tested if they have happened to align with user agents.
17:26:55 <pkra> keith: right, probably not though.
17:27:46 <pkra> scott: are you looking for agreement to write spec language for layout tables or are you assuming that the heuristics are correct or not?
17:28:15 <pkra> keith: I don't really want to focus on the heuristics themselves. In this issue, I want to focus on what they return.
17:29:12 <pkra> ... I've written a bit of the spec that returns either table or presentation.
17:29:33 <pkra> ... if we had layout tables, we could map that to various APIs via AAMs.
17:30:00 <pkra> ... I think it gets awkward in the spec. If the computed role return presentation, then it has to combine the information
17:30:44 <pkra> scott: right. I like the idea to have a layout table role. I would suggest something like the html-* roles we have already, only in HTML.
17:30:51 <jamesn> ack me
17:31:03 <Matt_King> q?
17:31:42 <pkra> jamesn: couple of thoughts. If role=presentation is on the table, then I feel that should stick.
17:31:53 <pkra> ... don't want to mess with that.
17:32:01 <pkra> ... I left a comment on JAWS behavior.
17:32:12 <pkra> ... like pixel size of cells.
17:32:23 <pkra> ... basically "really weird stuff".
17:32:38 <pkra> keith: browsers don't that but they check e.g. borders and striping.
17:33:01 <pkra> jamesn: nowadays some things should help (e.g., headers should help)
17:33:27 <pkra> ... I'm not sure if we should spend too much time trying to fix ancient history rather than modern standards.
17:33:55 <pkra> keith: right. I was hoping to slowly chip away at that until tables are just tables.
17:34:33 <pkra> jamesn: right. Still, I think developers have a good way to mark things as layout - presentation / none.
17:34:47 <pkra> keith: right. still, people trip over layout tables.
17:35:03 <pkra> jamesn: so they're building data tables that browsers turn into layout?
17:35:06 <pkra> keith: yes.
17:35:24 <pkra> ... e.g. first row TH with too few data that webkit will make it a layout table.
17:35:33 <jamesn> q?
17:35:39 <pkra> jamesn: thanks, that helps a lot to understand the purpose here. Sounds very good.
17:35:52 <pkra> keith: scott's comment re html-* roles.
17:36:04 <pkra> ... then it would still be a table?
17:36:43 <pkra> scott: the point of html-* roles, it leaves it up to browsers to expose those as they like. But it gives us a consistent WPT surface.
17:36:50 <pkra> keith: sounds good.
17:37:10 <pkra> ... I see html-video etc. That makes sense.
17:37:24 <jamesn> q?
17:37:27 <pkra> ... I think I have a good direction to follow.
17:37:56 <Francis_Storr> present+
17:38:32 <pkra> ... should we schedule the deep dive?
17:38:41 <pkra> ... maybe July 18?
17:38:47 <pkra> jamesn: perfect.
17:39:53 <pkra> zakim, end meeting
17:39:53 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been giacomo-petri, jamesn, aardrian, pkra, katez, Adam_Page, StefanS, Matt_King, Francis_Storr
17:39:55 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:39:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/12-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:40:03 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, pkra; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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