12:43:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:43:32 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/06/11-matf-irc
12:43:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:43:33 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Joe_Humbert
12:43:52 <Joe_Humbert> Zakim, this is MATF June 11, 2025
12:43:52 <Zakim> got it, Joe_Humbert
12:44:07 <Joe_Humbert> Meeting: MATF June 11, 2025
12:44:14 <Joe_Humbert> Chair+
12:44:24 <Joe_Humbert> present+
12:44:54 <Joe_Humbert> Agenda+ Drafts for 2.4.4, 2.4.6 and 2.5.3
12:45:09 <Joe_Humbert> Agenda+ 2.4.5 Multiple Ways
12:45:28 <Joe_Humbert> Agenda+ 2.4.7 Focus Visible
12:45:45 <Joe_Humbert> Agenda+ 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value
12:45:56 <Joe_Humbert> zakim, agenda?
12:45:56 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
12:45:57 <Zakim> 1. Drafts for 2.4.4, 2.4.6 and 2.5.3 [from Joe_Humbert]
12:45:57 <Zakim> 2. 2.4.5 Multiple Ways [from Joe_Humbert]
12:45:57 <Zakim> 3. 2.4.7 Focus Visible [from Joe_Humbert]
12:45:58 <Zakim> 4. 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value [from Joe_Humbert]
12:46:24 <Joe_Humbert> regrets+ Tim Gravemaker
12:46:38 <Joe_Humbert> regrets+ Jon Gibbins
13:00:37 <quintinb> quintinb has joined #MATF
13:02:00 <quintinb> present+
13:02:23 <rachaely> rachaely has joined #matf
13:02:27 <julianmka> julianmka has joined #MATF
13:03:19 <hdv> present+
13:03:45 <Joe_Humbert> present+ julianmka
13:03:55 <Joe_Humbert> present+ rachaely
13:04:29 <hdv> regrets+ Gleidson Ramos
13:05:04 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #matf
13:05:14 <julianmka> present+
13:05:19 <Joe_Humbert> scribe: quintinb
13:05:19 <quintinb> scribe: quintinb
13:05:30 <Detlev> regrets, down with a vius
13:05:32 <Karla> Karla has joined #matf
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13:05:40 <quintinb> get well soon Detlev
13:05:44 <Joe_Humbert> move to next agendum
13:05:44 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Drafts for 2.4.4, 2.4.6 and 2.5.3 -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert]
13:05:50 <Detlev> thanks!
13:05:53 <Tanya> present+
13:06:05 <Karla> present+
13:06:05 <Detlev> Detlev has left #matf
13:06:12 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com/w3c/matf/pull/117
13:07:30 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert summarises https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/36
13:09:45 <quintinb> No input needed unless you want more edits - issue will be closed soon
13:12:17 <quintinb> Nothing from me
13:14:11 <pauljadam> pauljadam has joined #matf
13:15:49 <pauljadam> Apple says this about Voice Control:
13:15:50 <pauljadam> Match Voice Control labels to the visible text. If the Voice Control label is different from the visible text in your app (for example, “Leave call” instead of “End call”), users may be confused.
13:15:50 <pauljadam> https://developer.apple.com/help/app-store-connect/manage-app-accessibility/voice-control-accessibility-evaluation-criteria
13:16:49 <pauljadam> +q
13:17:19 <Joe_Humbert> ack pauljadam
13:17:48 <rachaely> +q
13:18:27 <quintinb> pauljadam also mentions Apple's "Nutritional labels" - they also don't mention using just using the first word. How much of the string is required is not exactly clear
13:18:47 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:19:01 <Jamie> present+
13:20:06 <Jamie> q+
13:20:09 <quintinb> pauljadam There are a lot of inconsitency in what should be in the label. We need to be cautious around what the normative wording that we don't contradict.
13:21:21 <Joe_Humbert> ack rachaely
13:21:50 <quintinb> rachaely What about the existing note in WCAG where the label is in the front of the name. We need to keep that somewhere
13:22:44 <pauljadam> Should there be a note to say something about that Best practice being I'm important for Voice Control so they see the first word of the visible label text shown as the Name of the control when they do the Show Names command?
13:22:46 <julianmka> q+
13:23:00 <Joe_Humbert> ack Jamie
13:23:14 <julianmka> q-
13:24:57 <quintinb> Jamie I appreciate the suggested change to the note, but I feel like it can be very confusing. For us to add on extra stuff we need to define what we mean as we add to confusion. We're not overwhelming people when they try to understand what we've said.
13:26:20 <pauljadam> All text shown on the focussed control = the label text so all that text must be contained in the accessible name.
13:26:28 <quintinb> Jamie we need to change the phasing
13:26:42 <pauljadam> There's no difference between primary visible label and presented text
13:27:22 <pauljadam> Also no definition of "primary visible label" and "presented text"
13:27:48 <Jamie> ^
13:28:38 <Jamie> change the *phrasing
13:28:42 <quintinb> pauljadam what is a "primary visible label" - is there a secondary visible label?
13:28:42 <Joe_Humbert> q?
13:29:24 <quintinb> action: Joe_Humbert to add some notes and Jamie to contribute to improving the wording on 2.5.3
13:29:48 <Jamie> thanks quintinb keeping me accountable
13:29:48 <Joe_Humbert> move to next agendum
13:29:48 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 2.4.5 Multiple Ways -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert]
13:30:21 <quintinb> How many ways have we discussed this Joe_Humbert?
13:30:25 <Jamie> haha
13:30:52 <quintinb> 301549!
13:31:29 <pauljadam> Basically an app needs a navigation to all pages and a search? and that would meet it? What else might meet it?
13:32:14 <pauljadam> Or they could have an index with links to all pages and then pages could have some links to navigate to related pages?
13:33:31 <Carol> Carol has joined #MATF
13:33:38 <Carol> present+
13:34:37 <Joe_Humbert> q?
13:34:59 <quintinb> pauljadam what's the easiest way for apps to do this? Search? Map? Related?
13:35:11 <jamie1> jamie1 has joined #matf
13:35:15 <jamie1> present_
13:35:19 <jamie1> present+
13:35:21 <jamie1> q+
13:35:29 <Joe_Humbert> ack Jamie
13:35:54 <pauljadam> Set of Pages is fine :)
13:36:12 <pauljadam> Set of Software does not make sense to me :)
13:36:16 <quintinb> jamie1 "if one of these was present then" type statements might help.
13:36:32 <quintinb> Set of View Fragments?
13:36:51 <pauljadam> A page within a set of Pages.
13:37:00 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/13
13:37:01 <julianmka> q+
13:37:33 <pauljadam> Tab bars don't always have a tab for every page in the app.
13:38:37 <quintinb> jamie1 not every set of content may be accessibile to everyone in every way - I feel like we can say that when an app has a search feature, this applies, and what's applicable in that context. When something exists, there is some feature that should exist as part of it. We need to give limited use cases that do apply in an effort to provide
13:38:38 <quintinb> guidance
13:39:01 <julianmka> q+ to raise the topic of chatbots / AI assistants
13:41:02 <Joe_Humbert> ack julianmka
13:41:02 <Zakim> julianmka, you wanted to raise the topic of chatbots / AI assistants
13:42:25 <quintinb> julianmka Surfacing functionality through chatbots / assistance via a proprietry service in an app.
13:43:42 <quintinb> julianmka calling out automation / assistants vs traditional FAQ should be helpful
13:44:21 <quintinb> I agree julianmka - just because you forced your square AI through a square hole of usability does not a solution make
13:44:30 <quintinb> I mean round hole
13:44:35 <hdv> q+
13:44:51 <Joe_Humbert> ack hdv
13:45:08 <quintinb> hdv I haven't seen anything around that in EN
13:45:44 <Jamie> q+
13:45:51 <Joe_Humbert> ack Jamie
13:46:28 <quintinb> Jamie I'm wondering for exceptions - trying to think about other places in WCAG when exceptions or specific applications happen - is it normative or in a note?
13:46:39 <quintinb> Is that part of "How to meet?" which is informative
13:51:00 <quintinb> action: @Jamie to add a note
13:51:54 <quintinb> With reference to the right term for an interactive "thing"
13:52:08 <quintinb> We seem to be tending towards "Page"
13:52:13 <Joe_Humbert> move to next agendum
13:52:13 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 2.4.7 Focus Visible -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert]
13:52:28 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/51
13:56:37 <quintinb> q+
13:56:47 <Joe_Humbert> ack quintinb
13:58:17 <Joe_Humbert> close the queue
13:58:58 <rachaely> q+
13:59:19 <quintinb> We need to be clear that platforms may provide certain visible focus elements via the platform itself, but we need to be cautious re: x platform that we're no so lenient that that becomes an excuse
14:00:20 <Joe_Humbert> zakim, list participants
14:00:20 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, quintinb, hdv, julianmka, rachaely, Tanya, Karla, Jamie, Carol
14:00:48 <Joe_Humbert> present+ pauljadam
14:00:50 <Joe_Humbert> zakim, list participants
14:00:50 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, quintinb, hdv, julianmka, rachaely, Tanya, Karla, Jamie, Carol, pauljadam
14:01:20 <Joe_Humbert> rssagent, make minutes
14:01:31 <Joe_Humbert> rrsagent, make minutes
14:01:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/11-matf-minutes.html Joe_Humbert