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12:01:55 <elianaP> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:02:05 <David> present+
12:02:07 <David> scribe+
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12:03:06 <elianaP> present+
12:03:38 <HolgerK> present+
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12:04:01 <bergos> present+
12:04:18 <nicholascar> present+
12:05:15 <David> Topic: General discussion on timeline
12:05:45 <TallTed> present+
12:05:47 <HolgerK> q+
12:05:52 <David> Nick Car: what to do on remaining 24 core tickets + 4 sparql
12:06:02 <HolgerK> ack me
12:06:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/09-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
12:07:10 <David> Holger: 3 tickets on agenda are most important, others mainly editorial; can live without. Sparql mostly editorial, some prebinding q's to discuss with Andy
12:07:30 <elianaP> regrets: AndyS
12:07:34 <David> ... potentially start on node expressions in Sept
12:07:53 <TallTed> core -> https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3ACore
12:08:09 <TallTed> SPARQL -> https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3ASPARQL
12:08:35 <David> Nick Car: focus on core; there has been interest in other work e.g. shacl UI but leave for now
12:09:06 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/06/02-data-shapes-minutes.html
12:09:06 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/06/16-data-shapes-minutes.html
12:09:32 <TallTed> s/Nick Car:/nicholascar:/
12:09:35 <David> Holger: node expressions is a next logical item to pick up; happy to become an editor and push this work to try finish by year end
12:10:28 <TallTed> s/Holger:/HolgerK:/
12:11:40 <David> HolgerK: shacl compact syntax are also waiting on core
12:12:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/09-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
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12:12:54 <David> nicholascar: what is the expected process on establishing community groups; while WG is in session?
12:13:30 <David> HolgerK: potentially add label for "postponed" tickets in core and reevaluate later
12:14:03 <bergos> +q
12:14:55 <TallTed> s/Nick Car: what/nicholascar: what/
12:15:32 <David> bergos: on postponed tickets, there's one ticket I'd like to pick up number 192 i.e. not postpone
12:15:43 <elianaP> https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/issues/192
12:16:35 <David> HolgerK: others can pick up issues/make PRs, not only editors
12:17:04 <David> nicholascar: propose tickets without an assignee soon be changed to "postpone" status
12:17:26 <David> Topic: PR 160 Allow lists at sh:class and sh:datatype
12:19:07 <TallTed> s/Topic: PR 160/Topic: PR 395 on issue 160
12:19:46 <David> HolgerK: problem with sh:closed, only can directly close props directly at shape, did not consider inheritance, walk hierarchies etc.
12:20:05 <David> ... PR adds third value for sh:closed, true/false/sh:ByTypes
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12:20:40 <David> ... if value is ByTypes, system must walk hierarchy and look at classes in hierarchy
12:20:47 <ajnelson-nist> present+
12:21:03 <David> nicholascar: why named ByTypes?
12:21:20 <TallTed> i/problem with sh:closed/topic: PR 399 on issue 172 -- support for sh:closed sh:ByTypes
12:21:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/09-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
12:21:43 <David> HolgerK: because looks at types (rdf:type) first, then looks at subclass of, sh:node, and then target class triples
12:22:13 <bergos> +q
12:22:15 <TallTed> chair: nicholascar
12:22:34 <David> nicholascar: potentially there is a better name, to think about
12:22:49 <bergos> -q
12:23:36 <David> bergos: more discusson on the current name in the ticket
12:23:50 <David> Topic: issue 173 reification for sh:deactivated, sh:messsage and sh:severity
12:23:51 <TallTed> s/topic: PR 399/subtopic: PR 399/
12:24:11 <TallTed> s/topic: PR 160/subtopic: PR 160/
12:24:27 <David> HolgerK: can currently only declare message on single shape
12:24:31 <TallTed> s/Topic: PR 173/subtopic: PR 173/
12:24:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/09-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
12:24:51 <ajnelson-nist> q+
12:25:15 <David> ... same issue with deactivated. Reification now helps with this; for this triple specify activated etc.
12:26:26 <David> ajnelson-nist: does reification help with deactivate property shape but it's solely named as a blank node
12:26:44 <TallTed> s/Topic: PR 395/subtopic: PR 395/
12:27:09 <David> HolgerK: recommendation to always use IRIs for property shapes; and that people should add rdf:type for property shapes
12:27:19 <ajnelson-nist> ack me
12:27:31 <bergos> +q
12:27:37 <TallTed> i/Allow lists at sh:class/topic: PRs available for major SHACL Core features/
12:27:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/09-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
12:27:56 <David> Topic: RDF 1.2 support
12:28:23 <David> bergos: older PR for adding support for RDF 1.2 triple terms PR 368
12:28:52 <David> ... all concerns addressed; what is status? HolgerK has approved
12:29:05 <TallTed> s|s/Topic: PR|s/topic: PR|g
12:29:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/09-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
12:30:31 <David> nicholascar: one other reviewer on call, TallTed , any thoughts on PR
12:31:25 <David> TallTed: haven't seen PR recently, will review in next day
12:31:50 <David> nicholascar: is PR in agenda built off 368?
12:32:39 <David> bergos: keen to hear who is interested, should we discuss these now?
12:33:02 <David> nicholascar: any other agenda/other items to discuss prior?
12:33:30 <David> ... None; continue with RDF 1.2 discussion
12:33:56 <David> bergos: use case of targeting within triple terms
12:34:16 <David> ... puts focus node on the triple term itself,
12:34:32 <David> ... can use sh:inversePath rdf:reifies to go into the shape
12:35:16 <David> ... other targeting concept: is it a reifier; as could have different targets.
12:36:28 <David> ... two different things that would need be added for the targets, first filter then validation.
12:36:54 <David> ... triple part out means. Focus node is triple term, and want to go out
12:37:49 <TallTed> i/Topic: General discussion on timeline/agenda: https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/blob/agenda/admin/agenda-2025-06-09.md
12:37:57 <David> ... other way round is matching in to triple term. Triple part in, specify which parts of the triple term to match, then use same properties for target matching,
12:38:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/09-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
12:38:53 <ajnelson-nist> q+
12:38:58 <David> nicholascar: to summarise, is it, target triple term, then triples part in or out?
12:39:08 <TallTed> q+
12:39:31 <David> ... are there systems / use cases with cascading sets of reification?
12:40:05 <David> ajnelson-nist: can think of examples e.g. disputes "he said x she said y" going a few levels deep
12:40:26 <David> TallTed: will not know real use until people start using more
12:40:44 <David> ... urge caution until we know how people use it more
12:41:31 <David> nicholascar: are nested/cascading cases going to be complicated, can we make it any better
12:42:03 <David> ajnelson-nist: can look at inverse path with zero or more as an example of difficult cases
12:42:48 <David> ... question on traverse out of triple term. Talks about ex:age, and a version. Where is the age in the example?
12:43:38 <David> bergos: age is the focus node at the end, match triple term that is the subject Bob, match triple term, traverse out with predicate
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12:44:47 <ajnelson-nist> ack me
12:44:54 <David> bergos: David made proposal to create separate predicates; I wanted to avoid this, matching on triple term is a little "hidden" but better to keep path as main tool for traversing
12:45:33 <David> nicholascar: so can use the triple part in / out ?
12:45:52 <David> bergos: yes you could do this with a sequence path, not covered in current examples.
12:45:56 <elianaP> q+
12:47:17 <David> nicholascar: is it necessary to use sh:subject/sh:predicate/sh:object
12:47:39 <ajnelson-nist> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-concepts/#section-classicize-caveat
12:48:00 <David> ajnelson-nist: would clash with RDF 1.2; they use ttSubject etc.
12:48:01 <TallTed> q-
12:48:23 <David> mgberg: they only use this for classicising
12:48:47 <TallTed> ack elianaP
12:49:16 <David> elianaP: to clarify example; version is tied to the predicate, not the triple term?
12:49:46 <David> bergos: versioning ontologies as an example, can version predicates
12:50:15 <elianaP> q-
12:50:28 <David> elianaP: clarifying for example, so e.g. age works the same way in version 1 & 2 so can be used
12:51:09 <David> nicholascar:q to mgberg ttSubject etc. can not be used, wrong purpose?
12:51:59 <David> mgberg: would need to check, not clear intention of spec
12:53:02 <David> bergos: we need the predicate and the class as a value e.g. sh:predicate sh:Predicate; can cause issues if mixing namespaces e.g. rdf & rdfs
12:54:27 <mgberg> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-concepts/#section-classicize-definition
12:54:46 <David> nicholascar: if the purpose of inventing the predicates in the 1.2 namespace was not for this, perhaps other spec authors should reconsider or tell us why it might be wrong
12:55:59 <David> mgberg: idea is to take something in 1.2 and put it into 1.0 graph; notes on round tripping, there are caveats
12:56:14 <David> ... conceptually they are close
12:56:42 <David> nicholascar: as thought experiment, how to query for this in sparql if not using SPARQL 1.2 syntax
12:58:01 <David> nicholascar: how many new things: target triple term, is reifier, in & out (+ classes)?
12:58:19 <elianaP> q+
12:58:55 <David> bergos: isReifier is not absolutely necessary, others yes all required for traversal
12:59:58 <David> nicholascar: is there a single concept that would combine in/out
13:00:10 <David> bergos: yes could use single property with qualifier, but think better not to
13:01:06 <TallTed> we're over time.... we should strive to end 5 minutes before the hour, as all w3c calls are encouraged to do
13:01:27 <David> ... quite used to the in out style, not sure if there's an easier way to define it. No strong opinion on naming but think the basic structure is good
13:01:32 <mgberg> q+
13:02:21 <elianaP> q-
13:02:25 <David> elianaP: lets try to include less esp. in relation to triple terms, go for simplicity
13:03:01 <David> mgberg: core PRs or issues, go ahead and make PR, is this procedure?
13:03:04 <mgberg> ack me
13:03:23 <David> nicholascar: yes claim core and sparql PRs
13:03:42 <elianaP> meeting: Data Shapes meeting 2025-06-09
13:04:12 <elianaP> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:04:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/09-data-shapes-minutes.html elianaP
13:04:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/09-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
13:11:53 <elianaP> Zakim, end meeting
13:11:53 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been David, elianaP, HolgerK, bergos, nicholascar, TallTed, ajnelson-nist
13:11:55 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:11:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/09-data-shapes-minutes.html Zakim
13:12:01 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, elianaP; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
13:12:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #data-shapes
13:12:21 <elianaP> RRSAgent, excuse us
13:12:21 <RRSAgent> I see no action items