13:45:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:45:43 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/06/05-wcag2ict-irc
13:45:43 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:45:44 <Zakim> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:45:45 <ChrisLoiselle> zakim, clear agenda
13:45:45 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:45:55 <ChrisLoiselle> chair:  Mary Jo Mueller , Chris Loiselle
13:46:02 <ChrisLoiselle> meeting:  WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:46:18 <ChrisLoiselle> rrsagent, make minutes
13:46:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/05-wcag2ict-minutes.html ChrisLoiselle
13:46:34 <ChrisLoiselle> Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
13:46:34 <Zakim> ok, ChrisLoiselle
13:47:45 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda + Announcements
13:47:59 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda + Survey results: Review proposed updates to 2.4.2 Page Titled
13:48:07 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda + Edits to work on for EN 301 549
13:48:15 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda + Analysis for SC language changes (if time permits)
13:48:19 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
14:00:21 <Mike_Pluke> Mike_Pluke has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:55 <Mike_Pluke> present+
14:01:23 <PhilDay> PhilDay has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:37 <PhilDay> present+
14:03:53 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
14:03:54 <PhilDay> agenda?
14:03:57 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:12 <PhilDay> scribe+ PhilDay
14:04:28 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
14:04:28 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from ChrisLoiselle]
14:04:35 <maryjom> present+
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14:04:47 <JenStrickland> JenStrickland has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:52 <JenStrickland> present+
14:04:52 <PhilDay> ChrisLoiselle: Announcements. Open to the floor
14:05:00 <PhilDay> Welcome to Jennifer - new member.
14:05:06 <bba11y> present+
14:05:28 <PhilDay> JenStrickland: New to WCAG2ICT - been in AGWG for quite a while. In DC area.
14:06:02 <bba11y> Thank you Jen!
14:06:43 <PhilDay> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki
14:06:55 <PhilDay> Wiki gives overview & important links
14:07:14 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
14:07:14 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Survey results: Review proposed updates to 2.4.2 Page Titled -- taken up [from ChrisLoiselle]
14:07:39 <PhilDay> https://www.w3.org/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICTMay8/results/
14:08:40 <PhilDay> ChrisLoiselle: Want to try and move this on, or pause to allow us to work on other things
14:08:40 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:08:53 <maryjom> q+
14:08:55 <PhilDay> https://deploy-preview-626--wcag2ict.netlify.app/#applying-sc-2-4-2-page-titled-to-non-web-documents
14:09:00 <PhilDay> (Proposal 1)
14:09:08 <PhilDay> Proposal 2: https://deploy-preview-633--wcag2ict.netlify.app/#applying-sc-2-4-2-page-titled-to-non-web-documents-and-software
14:09:33 <PhilDay> maryjom: Last week, we addressed the software portion of this - reached resolution for non-web software criterion
14:09:39 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2025/05/29-wcag2ict-minutes.html#a766
14:09:44 <PhilDay> ... But then had another discussion on non-web documents
14:10:41 <PhilDay> Question of what is the page title for a document - is it the filename, or the name that you see when you open the document?
14:11:04 <PhilDay> Then further discussion - does a document always have a title that describes it purpose.
14:11:27 <PhilDay> Consider movies, music, pieces of art. They may not have a title that describes the topic or purpose..
14:11:58 <PhilDay> We had already addressed something similar for software - as name is not always the purpose of the software.
14:12:20 <PhilDay> ... But maybe we need similar adjustments for non-web documents; and will need to work on proposals for non-web documents.
14:12:43 <maryjom> q?
14:12:47 <maryjom> ack maryjom
14:13:30 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:13:35 <PhilDay> ChrisLoiselle: Action item for the group is to propose possible proposal for non-web documents - create a draft pull request and circulate to the task force to review in next meeting.
14:13:35 <PhilDay> (This is for 2.4.2. Page titled, specifically for non-web documents).
14:13:41 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
14:13:41 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Edits to work on for EN 301 549 -- taken up [from ChrisLoiselle]
14:14:43 <maryjom> Issues related to EN 301 549 - https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3A%22EN%20301%20549%22
14:15:00 <PhilDay> Mary Jo has added a tag specific to EN 301 549 work
14:15:00 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #wcag2ict
14:15:38 <PhilDay> ... See link above
14:16:11 <Mike_Pluke> Q+
14:16:15 <PhilDay> We may wish to harmonise language - remove mention of "underlying" when referring to platform software. And a few more issues
14:16:31 <PhilDay> maryjom will add more issues to GitHub
14:16:46 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:16:50 <PhilDay> ack Mike_Pluke
14:17:17 <PhilDay> Mike_Pluke: If we get rid of "underlying" it will be consistent with EN 301 549. There is some current discussion around platform software - but getting rid of "underlying" will help
14:17:42 <GreggVan> q+
14:18:01 <PhilDay> maryjom: We also use "user agent" or "platform software" and our definition of platform software includes user agent. May need to tweak the definition
14:18:06 <Mike_Pluke> q-
14:18:19 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:18:33 <PhilDay> ack GreggVan
14:19:52 <PhilDay> GreggVan: 2 things. 1) underlying platform software. Problem was that WCAG2ICT decided to get rid of underlying first, so it was removed in EN. There is no problem with using underlying in front of the term "platform software". The problem was a perception that the definition was for "underlying platform software".
14:20:06 <Mike_Pluke> Q+
14:20:39 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:20:42 <PhilDay> GreggVan: 2) We would like it to be consistent in both EN and WCAG2ICT
14:21:37 <PhilDay> ... User agent / platform software. They should be defined as different terms. Platform software can act as a user agent.
14:22:36 <PhilDay> q?
14:22:37 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:22:40 <PhilDay> ack Mike_Pluke
14:23:07 <PhilDay> Mike_Pluke: User agent is usually an agent for some type of content (e.g. for web, or for some type of document).
14:23:19 <PhilDay> ... Whereas platform software supports high-level software applications
14:23:32 <maryjom> q+
14:23:35 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:23:37 <PhilDay> ack maryjom
14:24:28 <PhilDay> maryjom: Only time we came up against this was from a public comment which had misinterpreted how it appeared. We never intended to define a new term "underlying user agent". Then we started removing use of underlying in some places where it was not needed
14:24:28 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:24:54 <PhilDay> GreggVan: If you use it in some places and not others - causes people to question why it is used somewhere and not others
14:25:09 <PhilDay> maryjom: We will have to review the doc for underlying
14:25:47 <PhilDay> q+
14:26:01 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:26:19 <ChrisLoiselle> Phil: Request for poll resolution ?
14:26:34 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: I will create PR then we can review.
14:26:36 <PhilDay> maryjom will create PR to show the impact of removing "underlying". The TF will then review it
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14:28:29 <philday> present+
14:28:33 <philday> scribe+ philday
14:28:49 <philday> Now back on IRC - was dropped briefly
14:29:07 <philday> User agent discussion in issue 605
14:29:14 <bba11y> +1 for the editorial consistency wrt capitalization -- wcag2issues TF also doing the same.
14:29:16 <philday> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/605
14:29:40 <philday> Editorial / consistency changes: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/618
14:30:07 <philday> maryjom: EN issue that is worth discussion...
14:30:11 <bba11y> +1 for keeping scrub of underlying separate from capitalization fix
14:30:44 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:30:54 <ChrisLoiselle> ack Phil
14:30:55 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:30:56 <philday> q-
14:31:02 <bba11y> q+ to mention wcag2issues has had recent difficulty with overlapping PRs
14:31:41 <philday> bba11y: Welcome to Jen. Had some difficulties in main WCAG directory - doing maintenance on understanding docs.
14:31:55 <philday> If you don't keep changes fresh, it's easy to get a mismatch
14:32:19 <philday> So review PRs soon after creation, then merge as soon as it is approved.
14:33:08 <phil> phil has joined #wcag2ict
14:33:12 <phil> present:
14:33:15 <phil> present+
14:33:19 <phil> scribe+ phil
14:33:47 <phil> maryjom: There was a note in 4 SCs and it would be good to discuss
14:34:26 <phil> In EN I noticed NOTE 1 in SCs 1.4.2 (in software), 2.1.2, 2.3.1, 2.2.2 all use the same note in EN
14:35:04 <maryjom> Since any [part of a non-web document or software] that does not meet this success criterion can interfere with a user's ability to use the [whole document or software], all content [in the document or software] (whether or not it is used to meet other success criteria) must meet this success criterion.
14:35:15 <phil> Note in question - see above
14:35:35 <phil> EN wanted to change the language to remove "must". This came from the original WCAG language and was carried forward in WCAG2ICT
14:35:47 <phil> In EN, the language is changed in all 4 SCs, but is not consistent
14:36:51 <phil> EN uses "shall" instead of "must"
14:37:16 <bba11y> q+ to ask to be reminded why we needed not at all ?
14:37:46 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:37:56 <phil> ack bba11y
14:37:56 <Zakim> bba11y, you wanted to mention wcag2issues has had recent difficulty with overlapping PRs and to ask to be reminded why we needed not at all ?
14:38:03 <maryjom> ack bba11y
14:38:43 <phil> bba11y: Why do we have this note? Should be flagged with a note as it is a non-interference criteria.
14:38:48 <phil> maryjom: Taken directly from WCAG
14:39:06 <phil> ... Only thing we did was word substitution to remove web terminology
14:41:03 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:41:46 <ChrisLoiselle> q+
14:42:27 <bba11y> q+ to file issue on wcag repo
14:42:48 <phil> (Discussion about whether notes should use the word "must" in WCAG.)
14:43:09 <maryjom> q?
14:43:36 <ChrisLoiselle> https://deploy-preview-626--wcag2ict.netlify.app/#comments-on-conformance perhaps stating a clarification statement within this if we are doing a global type of necessary phrasing
14:43:40 <phil> Mike_Pluke: Confirms that one note in EN does use "shall". It will be necessary for all content of the software to meet this success criteria
14:43:45 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:43:59 <phil> GreggVan: Because of the conformance model it would be necessary to ...
14:44:08 <phil> q?
14:44:08 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:44:32 <phil> maryjom: Good to discuss what the change should be - and get it right in WCAG, WCAG2ICT and EN 301 549.
14:44:35 <maryjom> ack ChrisLoiselle
14:44:36 <phil> ack ChrisLoiselle
14:44:49 <phil> ChrisLoiselle: Link above points to deploy preview
14:45:16 <phil> Adding another sentence/para may be sufficient
14:45:56 <phil> ChrisLoiselle: Could make a change to Conformance Requirement rather than in the individual note.
14:46:09 <phil> maryjom: This note is in all 4 SCs in WCAG - so we should probably do it there
14:46:11 <maryjom> q?
14:46:12 <phil> (in the notes)
14:46:15 <maryjom> ack bba11y
14:46:15 <Zakim> bba11y, you wanted to file issue on wcag repo
14:46:30 <phil> bba11y: We have to have a NOTE 1 that works well for us (so remove the word must)
14:46:56 <phil> ... This may be the first time we change a note with substantive changes (so may need to be NOTE 1 Modified).
14:47:07 <Mike_Pluke> Q+
14:47:18 <phil> maryjom: And we need an issue on WCAG2 to remove the word "must". bba11y to raise this
14:47:36 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:47:37 <phil> GreggVan: Will have to go through an errata process so could take some time
14:48:18 <Mike_Pluke> This is what we have put for 2.1.2 in EN 301 549, which I think is correct: Since any part of a non-web software that does not meet this success criterion can interfere with a user's ability to use the whole software, it is necessary for all content (which includes all parts of the software) in the software (whether or not it is used to meet other
14:48:18 <Mike_Pluke> success criteria) to meet this success criterion.
14:48:36 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:48:38 <phil> q?
14:48:42 <maryjom> ack Mike_Pluke
14:49:09 <phil> Mike_Pluke: Had a look at 2.1.2. Would be necessary to meet would be a better way of phrasing it.
14:49:49 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:50:06 <JenStrickland> JenStrickland has joined #wcag2ict
14:50:08 <JenStrickland> present+
14:50:33 <phil> Mike_Pluke: Very easy to misuse the word "must" or other similar imperatives. They tend to slip in!
14:50:46 <phil> bba11y to raise an issue on WCAG.
14:51:00 <phil> maryjom to create a PR in WCAG2ICT for us to make the change
14:51:24 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
14:52:24 <phil> maryjom: Couple of instances where there appeared to be a copy/paste error. Dragging movements table is in target size
14:52:58 <phil> maryjom: Not sure if this is the latest version.
14:53:09 <phil> GreggVan: posting the link to the latest version of EN
14:53:18 <GreggVan> https://labs.etsi.org/rep/HF/en301549/-/issues/219
14:54:32 <phil> 11.1.4.13
14:54:42 <phil> Has table for timing adjustable instead of hover
14:54:57 <phil> Mike_Pluke will follow up on these
14:55:34 <ChrisLoiselle> Open issue in wcag2ict to showcase that EN is editing current version 15 with edits.
14:55:44 <ChrisLoiselle> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3A%22EN%20301%20549%22
14:55:53 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:56:16 <bba11y> Issue for AGWG:  https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/4432
14:57:08 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:57:24 <phil> q?
14:57:33 <phil> We will talk again next week.
14:57:52 <phil> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:57:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/05-wcag2ict-minutes.html phil
14:58:57 <phil> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:58:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/05-wcag2ict-minutes.html phil
14:59:06 <phil> zakim, bye
14:59:06 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been phil, JenStrickland
14:59:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:13:01 <maryjom> rrsagent, bye
15:13:01 <RRSAgent> I see no action items