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12:10:45 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:10:46 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:11:03 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2025-06-05: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Jun/0000.html
12:11:04 <ivan> Chair: wendy
12:11:04 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:11:04 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Jun/0000.html
12:11:05 <ivan> regrets+ Gregorio, Gautier, Avneesh, Cristina, Hadrien
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12:57:16 <sue-neu> present+
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12:59:49 <ivan> present+
12:59:57 <toshiakikoike> present+
12:59:59 <wendyreid> present+
13:00:04 <shiestyle> present+
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13:00:36 <ivan> chair: sue-neu
13:01:01 <wendyreid> scribe+
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13:02:23 <ivan> present+ elizabeth_kraler
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13:03:10 <duga> present+
13:03:22 <ivan> present+ rdeltour
13:03:22 <mgarrish> present+
13:03:27 <sue-neu> TOPIC:HTML Survey Approval
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13:04:00 <sue-neu> TOPIC: HTML Survey Approval
13:04:16 <ivan> s/TOPIC:HTML Survey Approval//
13:04:19 <rdeltour> present+
13:04:37 <wendyreid> sue-neu: I will share a link in chat for anyone who needs it
13:04:38 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/pm-wg/pull/21/files
13:05:08 <wendyreid> sue-neu: Has everyone had a chance to look at the survey in its current form?
13:05:17 <wendyreid> ... any objections to it in its current form?
13:05:54 <wendyreid> ivan: There are some pending comments, but no reactions to those, so we might be able to add them
13:06:14 <wendyreid> sue-neu: Brady, you were saying about "hoping to discover obstacles", any change?
13:06:26 <wendyreid> duga: That was in response to your proposal
13:06:47 <wendyreid> ... I thought it was strange to hope to discover obstacles, I think we will, but we shouldn't hope for it
13:06:53 <wendyreid> sue-neu: I can commit it
13:06:57 <wendyreid> ivan: Let's do it
13:07:42 <wendyreid> [some technical things in the background]
13:08:00 <wendyreid> sue-neu: Can we look at the whole thing now
13:08:10 <wendyreid> ivan: Yes, we should have the text mostly done
13:08:45 <wendyreid> sue-neu: Any objections to using this text for the survey?
13:08:50 <wendyreid> duga: Same comment
13:09:15 <wendyreid> sue-neu: We can take that bit out, I have no objection
13:09:37 <wendyreid> duga: I had a question 4, it might have disappeared
13:09:50 <ivan> q+
13:10:00 <wendyreid> ivan: Add it as a change request
13:10:07 <wendyreid> duga: Will take that action item
13:10:27 <wendyreid> sue-neu: Do we want to review it in real time or review for a week before moving ahead
13:10:33 <wendyreid> ivan: I would like to raise an issue here
13:10:35 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:10:42 <wendyreid> ivan: We can deal with it now I think
13:10:50 <wendyreid> ... there are some new discussions on the issue list
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13:11:12 <LaurentLM> present+
13:11:33 <wendyreid> ... raised by someone related to Sigil, the latest comments related to an experiment with XHTML converted to HTML, reading systems today had issues
13:11:50 <wendyreid> ... my reaction, of course there are issues, the RXs aren't build for this
13:12:17 <wendyreid> ... the question is whether if it's easy for reading systems to adapt to HTML or a major engineering problem
13:12:17 <mgarrish> q+
13:12:27 <LaurentLM> q+
13:12:32 <duga> q+
13:12:33 <wendyreid> ... if we publish EPUB 3.4 with this change, RS will have to change
13:12:39 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:12:57 <wendyreid> mgarrish: I was going to respond, they may not realize that we need to go through W3C's process
13:13:17 <wendyreid> ... we aren't publishing this right away, it's a bit of a pointless exercise, we're still trying to establish this is something to do
13:13:26 <wendyreid> ... putting the cart in front of the horse
13:13:41 <wendyreid> ivan: I don't want to turn this into a discussion between him and me, if you could comment
13:13:55 <wendyreid> ... the reason I am asking, is it something we need to make clear in the survey?
13:14:03 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:14:19 <wendyreid> LaurentLM: Just to comment on Ivan's question, reading systems will evolve, we know that many won't
13:14:33 <wendyreid> ... there will be fragmentation, there will be RS stuck in XML
13:15:02 <wendyreid> ... I was speaking with the people from Dolphin EasyReader, the kind of EPUB they accept is a pure translation of DAISY XML to EPUB using special tools.
13:15:15 <wendyreid> ... no FXL, no interactivity
13:15:26 <wendyreid> ... anything not tied to simple EPUB doesn't work
13:15:34 <wendyreid> ... they use a subset of EPUB based on XML
13:15:40 <wendyreid> ... they don't have a web enginge
13:15:47 <wendyreid> s/enginge/engine
13:15:59 <wendyreid> LaurentLM: I spoke to others, they could, but it would be difficult
13:16:12 <wendyreid> ... it's going to be a range for everyone, some will be easy, some hard
13:16:18 <wendyreid> ... we'll have to check many things
13:16:25 <wendyreid> ... even if we use a web engine
13:16:40 <wendyreid> ... we cannot say in our communications that RS must evolve, it's not quite that simple
13:16:43 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:17:20 <wendyreid> duga: Sounds like EasyReader is going to have a lot of problems, I've tried this in the past without a webview, it's hard to recreate all of HTML/CSS
13:17:41 <wendyreid> ... it's going to be a limited subset, you can't write something that works with the resources you have for an ereader
13:17:54 <wendyreid> ... there's two approaches you can take
13:18:13 <wendyreid> ... something like TTS, you parse the content and get the words out
13:18:25 <wendyreid> ... you use XML and get the works
13:18:42 <wendyreid> ... they are just throwing XML parser at it, in ingestion
13:18:53 <wendyreid> ... arguably you just need to throw in an HTML parser
13:19:06 <wendyreid> ... XML parsers are common, built into many platforms
13:19:22 <wendyreid> ... new HTML parser, are they out there, are they common
13:19:33 <wendyreid> ... if you have to write your own, that's challenging
13:19:48 <wendyreid> ... if there aren't packages out there to use
13:20:06 <wendyreid> ... there is all this stuff out there for XML, may not be as much for HTML
13:20:14 <wendyreid> ... I don't know how hard this will be
13:20:38 <wendyreid> ... alternately one person pointed out they accept HTML, and they convert it to XML
13:20:47 <LaurentLM> q+
13:20:52 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:20:58 <wendyreid> LaurentLM: You've given me an idea
13:21:16 <wendyreid> ... at the level of the RS, we could imagine for the future for when XHTML is not supported in the web engine
13:21:33 <wendyreid> ... we could create a transform for SGML to HTML for the rendering engine
13:21:40 <wendyreid> duga: I don't know how other people do this
13:21:56 <wendyreid> ... for google, it never makes it to the rendering engine as XHTML, it's HTML
13:22:02 <wendyreid> ... it's already HTML at that point
13:22:11 <wendyreid> ... it's getting it through the rest of the system
13:22:23 <wendyreid> ... displaying it in the final viewport, not a problem
13:22:29 <wendyreid> ... aside from those with custom renderers
13:22:37 <wendyreid> ... it's getting it to the renderer
13:22:57 <wendyreid> sue-neu: For the purposes of the survey, would someone like to write up an intro that explains this is not happening tomorrow
13:23:06 <wendyreid> ivan: I think it's a good idea
13:23:27 <wendyreid> sue-neu: I can give it a shot
13:23:44 <wendyreid> duga: I thought the purpose of the survey was to get people to tell us this?
13:24:01 <wendyreid> ivan: Yes, but we are already getting comments like the one we are already getting, it might distract
13:24:25 <wendyreid> ... just need to clarify that this is not happening right away, there is a series of changes that need to happen
13:24:48 <wendyreid> sue-neu: I still think one purpose is to let people know this is happening and to give them a chance to contribute
13:25:00 <wendyreid> ... there will be more buy-in if people feel they had a hand in it
13:25:17 <wendyreid> ... having a line explaining this is the beginning of the process
13:25:42 <wendyreid> ... we want feedback like we got from the Sigil folks, and the expertise
13:26:02 <wendyreid> ... we need testers!
13:26:41 <wendyreid> ivan: I just need the final text so I can create the survey page
13:26:57 <wendyreid> sue-neu: I'll add the text, will need it reviewed
13:26:59 <sue-neu> TOPIC: Survey Distribution
13:27:37 <wendyreid> ivan: On that, I hope I can get it running, it'll be a W3C survey to anyone with a valid email, not W3C account
13:27:50 <wendyreid> ... the results may not be visible for everyone
13:28:35 <wendyreid> ... some WBS polls are restricted to Team-, Member-confidential, if it's not possible to make it public, we might have to do some copy-paste to share
13:28:56 <wendyreid> ... how can we review the responses?
13:29:00 <wendyreid> q?
13:29:03 <shiestyle> q+
13:29:28 <wendyreid> sue-neu: Will we be sending links to this from emails to people we know, organizations?
13:29:54 <wendyreid> ivan: The URL will go to everyone in the WG, request to spread it as far as we can
13:30:06 <wendyreid> ... mailing lists, etc
13:30:18 <wendyreid> ... we might think about a blog post
13:30:39 <wendyreid> ... Susan, you know the system for doing it, something short
13:30:45 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
13:30:55 <wendyreid> shiestyle: How can we prepare translated versions?
13:31:28 <wendyreid> ivan: Two possibilities, if you do a translation to japanese, I can do a separate WBS form, or we take the text and just put both for each question
13:31:35 <wendyreid> ... how many translations do we have?
13:31:50 <wendyreid> shiestyle: At least we need Japanese version, and Japanese answers
13:32:02 <wendyreid> ... after translation, I will give the text to Ivan
13:32:18 <wendyreid> ivan: Do we want other translations?
13:32:42 <wendyreid> ... for other countries we said the standard is in English, but we could do Chinese
13:32:44 <wendyreid> q+
13:33:11 <wendyreid> sue-neu: We talked at an earlier meeting about translations, we didn't want to get into the business of translating
13:33:15 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:33:50 <sue-neu> wendyreid: I think we said we don't need to translate into European languages, though translations are harder for Japanese and Chinese
13:34:11 <sue-neu> …we can send the content of the survey to members from Asian countries
13:34:27 <ivan> q+
13:34:32 <sue-neu> …and ask them to translate it if they wish, and to give us the answers translated back
13:34:36 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:34:53 <wendyreid> ivan: I agree, with the additional thing we need to do for China too
13:35:08 <wendyreid> ... we should send it to someone on the W3C team to distribute
13:35:31 <wendyreid> sue-neu: Wendy, are you able to reach out to them for that?
13:35:34 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Yup!
13:36:05 <wendyreid> ivan: I'll wait for the final text, I'll get the translation from Shinya, and I'll generate the WBS form, send it to the chairs, the chairs will distribute
13:36:36 <ivan> present+ rdeltour
13:36:36 <sue-neu> Topic: Horizontal Review Process
13:37:27 <wendyreid> ivan: This is my regular plea for assistance, when it comes time for horizontal review we will be in trouble because getting the reviews done is a long process and waiting too long will be challenging
13:37:50 <wendyreid> ... we should have people who take on the task of filling out and checking what is required for each process
13:38:03 <wendyreid> ... sorting through what things apply to EPUB
13:38:17 <wendyreid> ... I'm happy to take the internationalization one, but we need volunteers for the others
13:38:18 <sue-neu> q?
13:38:42 <wendyreid> sue-neu: I don't know what horizontal review means, what is the process
13:39:03 <duga> q+
13:39:11 <wendyreid> ivan: For i18n, accessibility, security, privacy, and TAG, they have to formally review the specification before it goes to candidate recommendation CR
13:39:28 <wendyreid> ... they mostly have questionnaires we need to fill out, they may log issues
13:39:37 <wendyreid> ... if it's not completed, we can't move forward in the process
13:40:13 <wendyreid> ... for example we have some issues tagged to get the i18n group's attention, like one I logged the other day
13:40:33 <wendyreid> ... web accessibility review is a little different for us because we have a group for that
13:40:39 <wendyreid> ... privacy and security is more challenging
13:40:53 <wendyreid> ... we've done it before, but they groups are more active
13:41:06 <wendyreid> ... it's a good thing, they have experience in things we don't
13:41:22 <wendyreid> ... more secure or private environments
13:41:35 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:42:01 <wendyreid> duga: Question, last time we did this it was very difficult, but it was also the first time we'd ever done horizontal review for EPUB
13:42:05 <wendyreid> ... would this time just be a diff?
13:42:11 <wendyreid> ... review the changes, or the whole spec
13:42:32 <wendyreid> ivan: Formal answer is its the whole spec, informal, we've already reviewed most of the spec, here is the new stuff
13:42:38 <wendyreid> ... it will be easier this time
13:42:53 <wendyreid> ... but I know that the security people are looking at overhauling their process
13:42:59 <wendyreid> ... there might be more work needed
13:43:14 <wendyreid> ... the technical point of view, it's already been reviewed
13:43:27 <wendyreid> ... main area of comments will likely be annotations
13:43:58 <sue-neu> TOPIC: TF Updates
13:44:02 <wendyreid> sue-neu: Do we have any updates?
13:44:16 <wendyreid> ... annotations hasn't met yet
13:44:21 <wendyreid> ... comics?
13:44:35 <wendyreid> shiestyle: Webtoons will report next week
13:44:45 <wendyreid> ... annotations will start next week
13:45:55 <wendyreid> sue-neu: Next steps, I'll add a line about the process to the survey, Ivan will send for translation, then Ivan will make the survey, and we'll have a link soon
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13:47:49 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:47:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/05-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
13:49:01 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
13:49:01 <RRSAgent> I see no action items