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12:58:23 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:58:24 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:58:25 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 4 June 2025
12:58:25 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:58:32 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 4 June 2025
12:58:36 <JJ> chair+
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13:01:51 <Tanya> present+
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13:02:04 <quintinb> present+
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13:03:07 <JJ> regrets+ JonGibbins
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13:03:39 <GleidsonRamos> present+
13:03:48 <Aash> present+
13:03:52 <quintinb> I'll scribe
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13:04:46 <JJ> scribe: quintinb
13:04:47 <julianmka> present+
13:04:51 <JJ> agenda+ User Agent definition proposal
13:04:56 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.2 Page Titled
13:05:01 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.5 Multiple Ways
13:05:05 <pauljadam> present+
13:05:05 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.7 Focus Visible
13:05:11 <JJ> agenda+ 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value
13:05:14 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:05:14 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- User Agent definition proposal -- taken up [from JJ]
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13:05:34 <Tim> present+
13:05:36 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/63
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13:06:20 <quintinb> JJ reading the note on issue 63: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/63#issuecomment-2824076194
13:06:23 <JJ> A User Agent on a mobile device is currently limited to only software that meets the original WCAG 2.2 definition of User Agent (e.g., a web browser) either used as a separate application (e.g., Chrome or Safari) or used in native mobile application to display web content (e.g., a webview, which uses all or part of a web browser). All other
13:06:23 <JJ> programs or applications(?) would either be defined as Software [linked] or as Platform Software [Linked].
13:06:38 <Illai> present+
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13:07:34 <JJ> "Example: Examples of platforms are: desktop operating systems; embedded operating systems, including mobile systems; Web browsers; plug-ins to Web browsers that render a particular media or format; and sets of components that allow other applications to execute, such as applications which support macros or scripting."
13:07:41 <Joe_Humbert> present+
13:07:53 <JJ> The term platform software, as used in WCAG2ICT, has the meaning below:
13:07:53 <JJ> platform software
13:07:53 <JJ>     software that runs on an underlying software or hardware layer and that provides a set of software services to other software components
13:08:37 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:08:51 <Jamie> present+
13:08:51 <quintinb> JJ What is software / platform software?
13:09:00 <Jon_Gibbins> regrets+
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13:09:38 <quintinb> q+
13:09:43 <JJ> ack quintinb
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13:10:24 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:10:26 <quintinb> I would have said browsers are user agents
13:11:10 <quintinb> For example: Jetpack compose does control certain elements of focus, i.e. where focus goes after a dialog dismisses. Does that make it a user agent
13:11:21 <Illai> q+
13:12:16 <quintinb> JJ agrees (yay!)
13:13:34 <quintinb> JJ we could see a user agent (UA) as something that renders something on the screen
13:13:34 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:13:52 <Jamie> present+
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13:14:51 <Illai> q-
13:14:52 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert I think we have to blame Google for the introduction of web browsers of both. For example Chrome OS is Chrome as an operating system. Part of the reason for the definition is that "documents" and "user agent" are ambiguous and make it hard for us to make changes and recommendations to the definitions
13:15:03 <Jamie> q+
13:17:22 <pauljadam> Toggle controls on iOS have below 3:1 contrast in the off state as their default appearance controlled by iOS (or the user agent)
13:17:56 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:18:29 <pauljadam> If the user modifies the appearance of the native control then they are now on the hook to make sure it has 3:1 contrast ratio for non-text content
13:19:28 <quintinb> Jamie How many different success criteria use user agent? Not normally a strategy, but perhaps using this could help us define context for all the scenarios. This would give us more direction. Just thinking about strategy.
13:20:32 <pauljadam> Links on iOS have insufficient text contrast as their default appearance but that is text so there is no exception and you have to correct the default appearance and make it 4.5:1
13:20:55 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:21:11 <quintinb> JJ there are a few, especially the new SC's that make exceptions for user agents
13:22:23 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:23:18 <pauljadam> a page is a document :)
13:23:29 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict-22/#document
13:23:35 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert along with this, the definition of UA in WCAG2ICT they return the definition with reference to "documents" - basically they say it's an "assembly of content"
13:23:45 <quintinb> quintinb goes bald-er
13:25:23 <quintinb> JJ software is not defined in WCAG
13:25:36 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict-22/#software
13:25:56 <JJ> Continue discussion at: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/63#issuecomment-2824076194
13:27:43 <pauljadam> Only for non-text content
13:27:48 <pauljadam> text has no exception
13:29:04 <pauljadam> It's not where they don't have control it's where they leave it as the default appearance.
13:29:05 <quintinb> Jamie we need to be clear in the definition, we need to get into the weeds. In the context of normative text, it seems that it's trying to define where control exists relative to authors, and does it need to be more complex than that
13:29:43 <quintinb> q+
13:29:59 <pauljadam> iOS user agent = iOS itself
13:30:30 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:31:07 <Tanya> is this something we can use - https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/components/
13:31:24 <JJ> user agent: "any *software* that retrieves and presents *content* for users" where software can be a framework like jetpack compose, a web browser, or a webview and content can be web content, a document, or native UI
13:31:33 <quintinb> We do need to be careful around User Agent in mobile because creators do need to take responsibility for their choices. If react native doesn't support keyboard accessibility, they must fix it
13:31:54 <quintinb> (the creators, not React Native)
13:32:08 <pauljadam> software = the iOS app, user agent = the iOS operating system itself
13:33:26 <JJ> https://developer.android.com/guide/platform
13:34:20 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:34:20 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 2.4.2 Page Titled -- taken up [from JJ]
13:34:47 <JJ> https://w3c.github.io/matf/#success-criterion-2-4-2-page-titled
13:35:09 <pauljadam> Page Titled is a good reason to all things pages and not screens or views ;)
13:35:26 <pauljadam> *call
13:36:36 <JJ> Related WCAG2ICT issue: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/627
13:38:48 <quintinb> Yeah I don't see that flying on mobile. The definition is going to be hard. e.g. Android + Fragments
13:40:39 <quintinb> And apps are announced by the OS
13:42:57 <quintinb> Oh my super met JJ
13:43:02 <quintinb> *meta
13:43:13 <Illai> q+
13:43:14 <pauljadam> on iOS the page title is visible at the top of the page and spoken with a "heading" trait
13:43:35 <quintinb> I think dialogs should have a heading
13:43:38 <pauljadam> https://github.com/cvs-health/ios-swiftui-accessibility-techniques/blob/main/iOSswiftUIa11yTechniques/Documentation/PageTitles.md
13:43:41 <julianmka> q+ to say that if a screen or view can support a semantic title, it should have one
13:43:52 <pauljadam> Use .navigationTitle to create a title for each page.
13:44:06 <JJ> q?
13:44:13 <JJ> ack Illai
13:45:48 <quintinb> Illai A few thoughts: The intent behind this is to provide context to user. From web, you might land up there "randomly" - does mobile have the same necessity. Is it enough to have text (invisble or not) to provide the same experience. Would that be a solution?
13:46:39 <JJ> q?
13:46:42 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:46:42 <Zakim> julianmka, you wanted to say that if a screen or view can support a semantic title, it should have one
13:47:08 <quintinb> julianmka it can definitely get fuzzy
13:49:22 <JJ> q?
13:49:50 <JJ> ACTION: Take components into account that do not have the capability/API to display title
13:50:16 <JJ> ACTION: Think about semantic requirements for identifying titles?
13:51:16 <pauljadam> I would have no if statements, simply require a page title and if they don't have one then it fails the SC
13:51:57 <quintinb> +1 pauljadam
13:52:04 <pauljadam> dialogs are not pages
13:52:05 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:52:09 <pauljadam> dialogs need headings
13:52:19 <quintinb> "Pages need to have a title" - ship it!
13:52:26 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:52:41 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert By title - do we mean visual title?
13:52:42 <JJ> "Pages have titles that describe topic or purpose. "
13:52:48 <pauljadam> .navigationTitle property
13:52:54 <quintinb> Visual and sematic, right?
13:53:09 <quintinb> *semantic
13:53:11 <pauljadam> I'm not sure if we should address fake titles or not, I'd leave it without discussing that
13:53:55 <pauljadam> Maybe a tester wont know if the page title is a fake title or a .navigationTitle and maybe that's fine
13:54:08 <Joe_Humbert> +1 to visual title fore all "views" or whatever term we settle on
13:54:11 <julianmka> +1
13:54:45 <pauljadam> yes I see fake traits in the wrong places 🤦🏻‍♂️
13:55:44 <JJ> ACTION: Differentiate between "visual" title and "semantic" title, perhaps require visual title and suggest semantics as best-practice
13:55:56 <Joe_Humbert> at least on iOS you can check traits if you have both and iPhone and Xcode
13:55:57 <Jamie> +1 Joe_Humbert
13:56:11 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:56:11 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 2.4.5 Multiple Ways -- taken up [from JJ]
13:56:35 <quintinb> mmm views..
13:57:03 <pauljadam> on iOS a11y inspector won't tell you if it's a .navigationTitle, it would only say if it's a Header which could be a normal heading.
13:58:38 <quintinb> Oooh congrats Jan Jaap!
13:58:48 <Joe_Humbert> congrats!!
13:58:48 <Aash> congratulations! JJ
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14:00:34 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:00:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/04-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:41:25 <JJ> JJ has joined #matf
14:41:28 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
14:41:28 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/06/04-matf-actions.rdf :
14:41:28 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Take components into account that do not have the capability/API to display title [1]
14:41:28 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/06/04-matf-irc#T13-49-50
14:41:28 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Think about semantic requirements for identifying titles? [2]
14:41:28 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/06/04-matf-irc#T13-50-16
14:41:28 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Differentiate between "visual" title and "semantic" title, perhaps require visual title and suggest semantics as best-practice [3]
14:41:28 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/06/04-matf-irc#T13-55-44
14:41:31 <JJ> zakim, bye
14:41:31 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Tanya, quintinb, GleidsonRamos, Aash, julianmka, pauljadam, Tim, Illai, Megan_Pletzer, Joe_Humbert, Jamie
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