17:08:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
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17:08:14 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:08:15 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King
17:08:34 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-at
17:09:15 <howard-e> present+
17:10:25 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group
17:10:53 <howard-e> scribe+
17:11:55 <howard-e> Matt_King: Call for changes to agenda
17:12:25 <howard-e> howard-e: No need for this to be an agenda topic but curious if folks have android devices to help out with upcoming mobile testing efforts
17:12:47 <howard-e> Matt_King: Yep, and Howard just to do a write-up of what we'll be looking for there
17:12:56 <howard-e> present+ Elizabeth
17:13:06 <howard-e> present+ LouisDo
17:13:13 <howard-e> Elizabeth: I have an android
17:13:27 <howard-e> Matt_King: Great, that would be valuable
17:13:35 <howard-e> LouisDo: I also have a pixel 7 that I can dust off
17:13:53 <howard-e> Matt_King: Great so we have a few people. And I check internally on getting a device
17:14:20 <howard-e> Matt_King: Reminder that we have an AT subgroup meeting on the 9th and this meeting is next week on the 12th
17:14:54 <howard-e> TOPIC: Current status
17:15:17 <howard-e> Matt_King: We have a few items in draft review that are blocked that we'll be discussing today on how to unblock
17:15:44 <howard-e> Matt_King: accordion is in progress and that could get us to 18 and a few more are coming so this could get us closer to this goal of getting to 23
17:16:01 <howard-e> Matt_King: Unblocking vertical temp slider and rating radio group are very close
17:16:24 <howard-e> present+ Isa
17:16:48 <howard-e> Matt_King: We have 4 in draft review. Isa met yesterday and have concerns with the date picker and you said you'll raise an issue to track that, right jscholes?
17:17:17 <howard-e> Matt_King: Isa is currently working on a test plan for the tabs activation
17:17:26 <howard-e> Matt_King: Anything to add on that Isa?
17:17:31 <howard-e> Isa: nothing tehre
17:17:59 <howard-e> Matt_King: The APG fix for the vertical temperate slider has been pushed to the week of June 16th
17:18:07 <howard-e> Isa: could we pull that?
17:18:29 <howard-e> Matt_King: Ah, you're just dependent on pulling it from the main branch so maybe you're unblocked here actually
17:18:57 <howard-e> Isa: Yes I could
17:19:08 <howard-e> Matt_King: Actually, you continue to focus on tabs on your side, I'll see if there's anything I can do to accelerate that
17:19:35 <howard-e> Matt_King: What script is it that pulls from APG
17:20:08 <howard-e> Matt_King: Let's get the tabs done and we can come back to it and maybe get it done sooner than we thought
17:20:24 <howard-e> TOPIC: Re-run JAWS report for color viewer slider
17:20:42 <howard-e> Isa: I still need to contact Hadi on this
17:21:04 <howard-e> Matt_King: Okay, well this is not blocking our goals for candidate review but is blocking review from Vispero
17:21:17 <howard-e> TOPIC: Issue 1246 - Arrow keys in NVDA test plans
17:21:42 <howard-e> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1246
17:22:08 <howard-e> Matt_King: I was looking into what was blocking the radio group test plan and it's this issue
17:22:28 <howard-e> Matt_King: We have all the reports done except for NVDA and they're conflicts. WHich are related to this issue
17:22:56 <howard-e> Matt_King: would like for us to prioritize getting this issue resolved and the first step is re-running these plans in the Test Queue
17:23:44 <howard-e> Matt_King: This is the Feb 12 Radiogroup using aria-activedescendant. Isa and LouisDo are assigned here and no work seems to be started there just yet
17:24:20 <howard-e> Matt_King: But looks like you have no bot results for yours Isa
17:24:27 <howard-e> Isa: I'll re-run the bot for myself then
17:24:58 <howard-e> Matt_King: Is this something you can prioritize this week LouisDo?
17:25:05 <howard-e> LouisDo: Yep
17:25:53 <howard-e> Matt_King: One thing particularly is if the bot gathered the right input for the up and down arrow commands
17:26:00 <howard-e> LouisDo: I can definitely pay attention to those
17:27:38 <howard-e> Matt_King: Looking right now at test 1's down arrow, down arrow command. Maybe we could move faster if .. Looking at the bot run assigned to Louis right now ...
17:27:43 <Matt_King> NVDA output from test 1 down arrow command:
17:27:45 <Matt_King>  heading
17:27:47 <Matt_King>  level 3
17:27:48 <Matt_King>  Pizza Crust
17:27:50 <Matt_King>  grouping
17:27:51 <Matt_King>  radio button
17:27:53 <Matt_King>  not checked
17:27:54 <Matt_King>  Regular crust
17:27:56 <Matt_King>  radio button
17:27:57 <Matt_King>  not checked
17:27:59 <Matt_King>  Deep dish
17:28:00 <Matt_King>  radio button
17:28:02 <Matt_King>  not checked
17:28:03 <Matt_King>  Thin crust
17:28:20 <howard-e> Matt_King: So the bot recorded output for all of the radio buttons. So the bot is giving results for the same thing James was getting
17:28:34 <howard-e> Matt_King: So this is different if you look at the same results from the reports page
17:30:24 <howard-e> Matt_King: Actually, the down arrow, down arrow is the same here. It was the ins+up arrow there was a disagreement
17:30:55 <howard-e> Matt_King: Maybe it's the insert + Up arrow we were concerned with when raising the issue.
17:31:32 <howard-e> Matt_King: The test says "navigate forwards into a radio group where no radio buttons are checked" so not necessarily pinpointing any
17:31:59 <howard-e> Matt_King: So if we include down arrow for NVDA then the assertions would definitely be wrong
17:33:05 <howard-e> Matt_King: In test 7 "navigate forwards to unchecked radio button", we didn't include the arrow key in that one, we just did f and r and in test 8, shift + f and shift + r
17:33:24 <howard-e> Matt_King: same with tests 9 and 10
17:34:52 <howard-e> Matt_King: But in test 15, we have insert + up arrow and the report says ... but even the test name says we're collecting information about a radio button, and also 14
17:36:03 <howard-e> Matt_King: It says out of grouping
17:36:10 <howard-e> Isa: I think the bot was giving wrong results
17:36:26 <howard-e> LouisDo: From what I was testing, the commands I was testing gave right output but the bot was doing something different
17:37:02 <howard-e> LouisDo: I think the bot was executing up arrow but not insert + up arrow
17:37:26 <howard-e> LouisDo: so i should still prioritize in that way?
17:37:47 <howard-e> Matt_King: Wondering if we should even restructure the tests in that way based on that
17:38:21 <howard-e> Matt_King: So the decisions to make here is if we should remove down arrow from tests 2 and 3
17:39:03 <howard-e> jscholes: If you're in focus mode, and press insert + up, you should here only that radio button and not any of these others
17:40:24 <howard-e> Matt_King: The bot is also mentioning 'top' in the output which makes me think it might be on an edit field
17:40:40 <howard-e> jscholes: top only gets uttered if you move the cursor to the beginning of something it is already on
17:41:10 <howard-e> jscholes: it happens with desktop mode with numpad 7 and laptop layout when you do insert + up
17:41:26 <howard-e> jscholes: could the bot be configured to use laptop layout?
17:41:38 <howard-e> Matt_King: It seems like the bot is configured in that way
17:42:04 <howard-e> Isa: It is invalidating the commands in some way then, because it would mean the bot isn't following the default settings instructions
17:42:26 <howard-e> Matt_King: And in laptop layout, if you press insert + up arrow in browse mode, it would actually be ignoring the insert
17:43:13 <howard-e> jscholes: well in browse mode, when you move the arrow keys, you're moving the NVDA document cursor. If you press insert + up or numpad 7, you move the view cursor and not the browse cursor
17:43:50 <howard-e> jscholes: you would move the review cursor up by 1 line so it's impossible to say from the output alone which cursor it's moving
17:44:06 <howard-e> Matt_King: But it does appear to be consistent with laptop mode
17:44:10 <howard-e> jscholes: exactly
17:44:32 <howard-e> Matt_King: Well 2 things, 1 is we may have found a bot bug and 2 is making a decision on how to modify all 3 tests
17:46:20 <howard-e> Matt_King: Tests 14 and 15. Or any test when reading the current radio button, we want to read the name of radio button and it's state?
17:46:48 <howard-e> jscholes: I would find it odd not to also mention the role
17:47:15 <howard-e> Matt_King: So maybe we don't test ins + up arrow at all or we just test it for name, role and state
17:47:27 <howard-e> jscholes: But it would fail
17:47:37 <howard-e> Matt_King: right, but not all. would get the name
17:48:29 <howard-e> Matt_King: Do we think in browse mode, because the default is screen layout that it's legit for us to just not test insert + up arrow?
17:49:05 <howard-e> LouisDo: The objection to that is that combination is too verbose, no?
17:49:34 <howard-e> Matt_King: Well insert + up arrow according to NVAccess, is that it's not the intent so that's an argument in favor of leaving it out
17:49:55 <howard-e> jscholes: In a way, they are designed to provide the function but as a subset of what they do
17:50:15 <howard-e> Matt_King: it gives a lot of information but I suppose you just don't know which button is the current button
17:50:51 <howard-e> Matt_King: we have things like position but it doesn't tell you what you're on. But the whole purpose of the test is telling you about one specific button
17:51:09 <howard-e> Isa: In a way it does, but it gives more
17:51:33 <howard-e> LouisDo: Right and that's probably NVAccess position as well, but we aren't expecting it in that way
17:52:18 <howard-e> jscholes: It's like in a way, calling a "say all" and it said too much things. I don't think it's excess verbosity as it's behaving as intended though
17:52:39 <howard-e> Isa: So it's not necessarily failing so I don't think we should leave it out
17:53:11 <howard-e> jscholes: yes, i don't think we leave it out. But if we include these assertions, it will pass them. People tend to not really notice what's missing
17:53:16 <howard-e> LouisDo: So it's moot?
17:53:28 <howard-e> jscholes: NVAccess may have more of an issue with leaving them out
17:53:49 <howard-e> jscholes: I still don't think it makes sense to navigate into the end of a radio list with an up arrow because you can't do that
17:53:58 <howard-e> Isa: That may be a different test jscoles
17:54:43 <howard-e> Matt_King: One of things that give me concern now is in which of the reports, is that the output for insert + up arrow is inaccurate
17:55:22 <howard-e> Matt_King: We need to scrutinize the insert + up arrow in all the results
17:55:49 <howard-e> Matt_King: I also want to go back and take a fresh look at those conflicts
17:56:59 <howard-e> Matt_King: Also including insert + down and raise an issue for each result we find
17:58:27 <howard-e> TOPIC: Run of accordion test plan
17:58:47 <howard-e> Matt_King: LouisDo should be ready to be assigned to accordion
18:04:17 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:04:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/04-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
18:04:49 <Matt_King> zakim, end meeting
18:04:49 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been howard-e, Elizabeth, LouisDo, Isa
18:04:51 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:04:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/04-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
18:04:57 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Matt_King; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:04:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at