IRC log of aria-apg on 2025-06-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:07:44 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:07:48 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/06/03-aria-apg-irc
18:07:48 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:07:49 [Zakim]
Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
18:08:01 [Matt_King]
present+
18:08:23 [howard-e]
howard-e has joined #aria-apg
18:08:28 [Adam_Page]
scribe: Adam_Page
18:08:28 [Siri]
Siri has joined #aria-apg
18:08:44 [Adam_Page]
zakim, next item
18:08:44 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
18:08:47 [howard-e]
present+
18:09:04 [Adam_Page]
present+
18:10:02 [Matt_King]
TOPIC: Publication planning
18:10:28 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: we didn’t publish on May 29
18:10:35 [Adam_Page]
... as planned, because not enough of the PRs had landed
18:10:39 [Adam_Page]
... so we skipped it
18:10:45 [Adam_Page]
... I’ve tentatively reset the date to June 17
18:10:50 [Adam_Page]
... already merged 1 more PR
18:11:04 [Adam_Page]
... so there are now at least 2
18:11:04 [Adam_Page]
... and at least 1 or 2 more that are close enough
18:11:14 [Adam_Page]
... so comes down to people’s availability
18:11:32 [Adam_Page]
... does that work for you, @howard-e?
18:11:41 [Adam_Page]
howard-e: yes, fine with me
18:11:57 [Adam_Page]
... but I’m not available the following week
18:12:07 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: if you look at the milestone, there are 2 things merged, 2 things pending
18:12:26 [Adam_Page]
... I do want to talk about PR #3249
18:12:30 [Adam_Page]
... there’s a merge conflict
18:13:13 [Adam_Page]
@howard-e I’ll take care of the merge
18:13:33 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: great, that’ll be #3
18:13:57 [Adam_Page]
TOPIC: PR 3251
18:14:17 [Adam_Page]
GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3251
18:14:59 [Siri]
scribe+
18:15:33 [Siri]
Matt: Thank you Adam for awesome updates
18:16:07 [Siri]
Example is really good, performance issue, expansion and collapse is not working
18:16:21 [Siri]
with JAWS
18:17:03 [Siri]
Documentation update is required for FAQ content
18:17:17 [Siri]
Adam will take care of it
18:19:05 [Siri]
The way the pointer/focus ring/hover effect that will let people know they can click anywhere in the card
18:19:59 [Siri]
Adam: With in card, there is visible button label, details, when user hover over tghe card , the details will get underline to indicate that what they say when they click a card
18:21:20 [Siri]
Matt: Also add why we use Aritical over group/region in A11y features
18:21:39 [Siri]
Article is used for rotor/quick nav navigate
18:22:03 [Siri]
Also tell why we don't use region in this case
18:22:39 [Siri]
Once Adam adds documentation, group will iterate on it
18:23:10 [Siri]
High contrast, if system colors is used
18:23:33 [Siri]
Adam: Built in HCM using some system colors
18:23:46 [Siri]
Used Jon's PR content
18:24:10 [Siri]
This example uses system colors instead of forced colors
18:27:13 [Matt_King]
TOPIC: Pull request 3272 - Change list semantics in Disclosure FAQ example
18:28:13 [Adam_Page]
Matt: We have the disclosure FAQ example, where dt contains a button and dd contains the answer
18:28:29 [Adam_Page]
... earlier we agreed to get away from <dl> semantics and decided to use a simple list instead
18:28:37 [Adam_Page]
... Jon ended up using <ol>
18:29:04 [Adam_Page]
... at least for me, JAWS presented it as if were unordered
18:29:04 [Adam_Page]
... so somehow the numbers were suppressed
18:29:04 [Adam_Page]
... maybe through CSS
18:29:22 [Adam_Page]
... so my questions are
18:29:28 [Adam_Page]
... why don’t the numbers appear?
18:29:31 [Adam_Page]
... and are they invisible to everyone?
18:29:36 [Adam_Page]
... and if so, then why not change to <ul>
18:29:46 [Adam_Page]
Lola: I don’t see numbers
18:29:48 [Adam_Page]
... it’s a toggle situation
18:29:52 [Adam_Page]
... I’m trying to look at the CSS
18:30:18 [Adam_Page]
... yes, we’re using SVG as the toggle icon
18:30:23 [Adam_Page]
... and that’s taking place of the numbers
18:30:39 [Adam_Page]
... I agree with you: we should use a <ul>
18:30:50 [Adam_Page]
howard-e: I agree
18:31:04 [Adam_Page]
Adam_Page: me too
18:31:48 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: let’s have Jon make that change and then get some more reviews
18:32:14 [Adam_Page]
... we should look at code and design
18:32:21 [Adam_Page]
... I’m looking from the AT point of view
18:32:40 [Adam_Page]
Adam_Page: I’ll review
18:35:25 [Adam_Page]
Topic: Treegrid example has <tr role="row"> which is not allowed per ARIA in HTML spec
18:35:28 [Adam_Page]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1049
18:35:35 [Adam_Page]
Github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1049
18:35:43 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: this issue is 6 years old
18:36:05 [Adam_Page]
... this was originally done because of validator errors
18:36:15 [Adam_Page]
... we had <tr> in tree grid with `role="row"` on them
18:36:35 [Adam_Page]
... now we have a later version of the validator
18:37:37 [Adam_Page]
... we need to confirm: do we still have `role="row"` in the code
18:38:33 [Adam_Page]
Adam_Page: yes, we do
18:39:04 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: if we remove that, will the validator bugs be fixed?
18:39:23 [Adam_Page]
howard-e: they show up as warning instead of errors
18:39:28 [Adam_Page]
... they wouldn’t block our build
18:39:40 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: when the validator throws warnings, does it show as a failed test?
18:39:42 [Adam_Page]
howard-e: ho
18:39:57 [Adam_Page]
s/ho/no/
18:40:22 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: I think it would be excellent to remove the explicit role
18:40:48 [Adam_Page]
Siri: is it doing anything wrong?
18:41:04 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: technically, no
18:41:11 [Adam_Page]
... however, because it’s an APG example, it is suggesting that people do something they shouldn’t need to do
18:41:18 [Adam_Page]
... it makes unnecessary work for people
18:41:35 [Adam_Page]
... we don’t want to encourage ARIA overuse
18:42:02 [Adam_Page]
... so it seems worth testing out a PR that removes this role
18:42:27 [Adam_Page]
Adam_Page: I’ll take the issue and create a PR
18:43:17 [Adam_Page]
Topic: Question about multi-thumb slider design
18:43:27 [Adam_Page]
Github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3278
18:43:49 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: not sure if they’re asking for their own use, or suggesting that the APG be changed
18:47:27 [Adam_Page]
... if they’re asking for themselves, no problem
18:47:46 [Adam_Page]
... if they’re asking for the APG, we actually have rationale for choosing the triangle since they suggest two values in a multithumb slider and the range between them
18:48:03 [Adam_Page]
Topic: Question about fieldset/legend and radio pattern
18:48:10 [Adam_Page]
GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3274
18:48:11 [Matt_King]
TOPIC: Issue 3274 - Question about fieldset/legend and radio pattern
18:49:44 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: it’s not clear whether they’re asking us to _use_ fieldset/legend
18:49:59 [Adam_Page]
... our standard answer is that APG is here to demonstrate using ARIA roles
18:50:05 [Adam_Page]
... and specifically the `radiogroup` role in this case
18:50:33 [Adam_Page]
... but there may be a more solid reason to not use fieldset/legend, depending on the content model
18:53:34 [Adam_Page]
... screen readers don’t differentiate between `group` and `radiogroup`, I think
18:54:46 [Adam_Page]
... we do want to include native HTML examples in the APG, we just haven’t started doing it yet
18:55:24 [Adam_Page]
... I thought we might talk about that in our About section, but it looks like we don’t
18:55:32 [Adam_Page]
... that our first mission is to illustrate the use of ARIA
18:55:37 [Adam_Page]
... but we do want to demonstrate semantic HTML
18:55:52 [Adam_Page]
... in all of these examples, it’d be great to have a very simple native equivalent, where applicable
18:56:50 [Adam_Page]
... one of the differences between an ARIA radio group and an HTML radio group, is the focus management
18:57:13 [Adam_Page]
... in an HTML radio group, when you tab backward into the group, it focuses on the _last_ radio button
18:58:52 [Adam_Page]
... so the native behavior is disorienting
18:59:04 [Adam_Page]
... it’s unlike all other composite widgets
19:00:22 [Adam_Page]
zakim, end meeting
19:00:22 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, howard-e, Adam_Page
19:00:24 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
19:00:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/03-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
19:00:33 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
19:00:33 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria-apg