18:07:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:07:48 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/06/03-aria-apg-irc
18:07:48 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:07:49 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
18:08:01 <Matt_King> present+
18:08:23 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-apg
18:08:28 <Adam_Page> scribe: Adam_Page
18:08:28 <Siri> Siri has joined #aria-apg
18:08:44 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:08:44 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
18:08:47 <howard-e> present+
18:09:04 <Adam_Page> present+
18:10:02 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Publication planning
18:10:28 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: we didn’t publish on May 29
18:10:35 <Adam_Page> ... as planned, because not enough of the PRs had landed
18:10:39 <Adam_Page> ... so we skipped it
18:10:45 <Adam_Page> ... I’ve tentatively reset the date to June 17
18:10:50 <Adam_Page> ... already merged 1 more PR
18:11:04 <Adam_Page> ... so there are now at least 2
18:11:04 <Adam_Page> ... and at least 1 or 2 more that are close enough
18:11:14 <Adam_Page> ... so comes down to people’s availability
18:11:32 <Adam_Page> ... does that work for you, @howard-e?
18:11:41 <Adam_Page> howard-e: yes, fine with me
18:11:57 <Adam_Page> ... but I’m not available the following week
18:12:07 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: if you look at the milestone, there are 2 things merged, 2 things pending
18:12:26 <Adam_Page> ... I do want to talk about PR #3249
18:12:30 <Adam_Page> ... there’s a merge conflict
18:13:13 <Adam_Page> @howard-e I’ll take care of the merge
18:13:33 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: great, that’ll be #3
18:13:57 <Adam_Page> TOPIC: PR 3251
18:14:17 <Adam_Page> GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3251
18:14:59 <Siri> scribe+
18:15:33 <Siri> Matt: Thank you Adam for awesome updates
18:16:07 <Siri> Example is really good, performance issue, expansion and collapse is not working
18:16:21 <Siri> with JAWS
18:17:03 <Siri> Documentation update is required for FAQ content
18:17:17 <Siri> Adam will take care of it
18:19:05 <Siri> The way the pointer/focus ring/hover effect that will let people know they can click anywhere in the card
18:19:59 <Siri> Adam: With in card, there is visible button label, details, when user hover over tghe card , the details will get underline to indicate that what they say when they click a card
18:21:20 <Siri> Matt: Also add why we use Aritical over group/region in A11y features
18:21:39 <Siri> Article is used for rotor/quick nav navigate
18:22:03 <Siri> Also tell why we don't use region in this case
18:22:39 <Siri> Once Adam adds documentation, group will iterate on it
18:23:10 <Siri> High contrast, if system colors is used
18:23:33 <Siri> Adam: Built in HCM using some system colors
18:23:46 <Siri> Used Jon's PR content
18:24:10 <Siri> This example uses system colors instead of forced colors
18:27:13 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Pull request 3272 - Change list semantics in Disclosure FAQ example
18:28:13 <Adam_Page> Matt: We have the disclosure FAQ example, where dt contains a button and dd contains the answer
18:28:29 <Adam_Page> ... earlier we agreed to get away from <dl> semantics and decided to use a simple list instead
18:28:37 <Adam_Page> ... Jon ended up using <ol>
18:29:04 <Adam_Page> ... at least for me, JAWS presented it as if were unordered
18:29:04 <Adam_Page> ... so somehow the numbers were suppressed
18:29:04 <Adam_Page> ... maybe through CSS
18:29:22 <Adam_Page> ... so my questions are
18:29:28 <Adam_Page> ... why don’t the numbers appear?
18:29:31 <Adam_Page> ... and are they invisible to everyone?
18:29:36 <Adam_Page> ... and if so, then why not change to <ul>
18:29:46 <Adam_Page> Lola: I don’t see numbers
18:29:48 <Adam_Page> ... it’s a toggle situation
18:29:52 <Adam_Page> ... I’m trying to look at the CSS
18:30:18 <Adam_Page> ... yes, we’re using SVG as the toggle icon
18:30:23 <Adam_Page> ... and that’s taking place of the numbers
18:30:39 <Adam_Page> ... I agree with you: we should use a <ul>
18:30:50 <Adam_Page> howard-e: I agree
18:31:04 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page: me too
18:31:48 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: let’s have Jon make that change and then get some more reviews
18:32:14 <Adam_Page> ... we should look at code and design
18:32:21 <Adam_Page> ... I’m looking from the AT point of view
18:32:40 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page: I’ll review
18:35:25 <Adam_Page> Topic: Treegrid example has <tr role="row"> which is not allowed per ARIA in HTML spec
18:35:28 <Adam_Page> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1049
18:35:35 <Adam_Page> Github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1049
18:35:43 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: this issue is 6 years old
18:36:05 <Adam_Page> ... this was originally done because of validator errors
18:36:15 <Adam_Page> ... we had <tr> in tree grid with `role="row"` on them
18:36:35 <Adam_Page> ... now we have a later version of the validator
18:37:37 <Adam_Page> ... we need to confirm: do we still have `role="row"` in the code
18:38:33 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page: yes, we do
18:39:04 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: if we remove that, will the validator bugs be fixed?
18:39:23 <Adam_Page> howard-e: they show up as warning instead of errors
18:39:28 <Adam_Page> ... they wouldn’t block our build
18:39:40 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: when the validator throws warnings, does it show as a failed test?
18:39:42 <Adam_Page> howard-e: ho
18:39:57 <Adam_Page> s/ho/no/
18:40:22 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: I think it would be excellent to remove the explicit role
18:40:48 <Adam_Page> Siri: is it doing anything wrong?
18:41:04 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: technically, no
18:41:11 <Adam_Page> ... however, because it’s an APG example, it is suggesting that people do something they shouldn’t need to do
18:41:18 <Adam_Page> ... it makes unnecessary work for people
18:41:35 <Adam_Page> ... we don’t want to encourage ARIA overuse
18:42:02 <Adam_Page> ... so it seems worth testing out a PR that removes this role
18:42:27 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page: I’ll take the issue and create a PR
18:43:17 <Adam_Page> Topic: Question about multi-thumb slider design
18:43:27 <Adam_Page> Github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3278
18:43:49 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: not sure if they’re asking for their own use, or suggesting that the APG be changed
18:47:27 <Adam_Page> ... if they’re asking for themselves, no problem
18:47:46 <Adam_Page> ... if they’re asking for the APG, we actually have rationale for choosing the triangle since they suggest two values in a multithumb slider and the range between them
18:48:03 <Adam_Page> Topic: Question about fieldset/legend and radio pattern
18:48:10 <Adam_Page> GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3274
18:48:11 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Issue 3274 - Question about fieldset/legend and radio pattern
18:49:44 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: it’s not clear whether they’re asking us to _use_ fieldset/legend
18:49:59 <Adam_Page> ... our standard answer is that APG is here to demonstrate using ARIA roles
18:50:05 <Adam_Page> ... and specifically the `radiogroup` role in this case
18:50:33 <Adam_Page> ... but there may be a more solid reason to not use fieldset/legend, depending on the content model
18:53:34 <Adam_Page> ... screen readers don’t differentiate between `group` and `radiogroup`, I think
18:54:46 <Adam_Page> ... we do want to include native HTML examples in the APG, we just haven’t started doing it yet
18:55:24 <Adam_Page> ... I thought we might talk about that in our About section, but it looks like we don’t
18:55:32 <Adam_Page> ... that our first mission is to illustrate the use of ARIA
18:55:37 <Adam_Page> ... but we do want to demonstrate semantic HTML
18:55:52 <Adam_Page> ... in all of these examples, it’d be great to have a very simple native equivalent, where applicable
18:56:50 <Adam_Page> ... one of the differences between an ARIA radio group and an HTML radio group, is the focus management
18:57:13 <Adam_Page> ... in an HTML radio group, when you tab backward into the group, it focuses on the _last_ radio button
18:58:52 <Adam_Page> ... so the native behavior is disorienting
18:59:04 <Adam_Page> ... it’s unlike all other composite widgets
19:00:22 <Adam_Page> zakim, end meeting
19:00:22 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, howard-e, Adam_Page
19:00:24 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
19:00:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/03-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
19:00:33 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:00:33 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg