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11:51:06 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/06/02-data-shapes-irc
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11:51:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/02-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
11:52:24 <TallTed> meeting: Data Shapes Working Group teleconference
11:52:24 <TallTed> agenda: https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/raw/refs/heads/agenda/admin/agenda-2025-06-02.md
11:53:16 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/05/26-data-shapes-minutes.html
11:53:16 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/06/09-data-shapes-minutes.html
11:53:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/02-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
11:55:00 <TallTed> scribe: __TBD__
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11:57:32 <agendabot> clear agenda
11:57:32 <agendabot> agenda+ ...
11:57:32 <agendabot> agenda+ ...
11:57:32 <agendabot> agenda+ [Support for RDF 1.2 triple terms (without asserted triple)](https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/issues/379): What should be part of core?
11:57:33 <agendabot> agenda+ The minutes can be found [(link to be added)](https://www.w3.org/2025/06/02-data-shapes-minutes.html)
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11:58:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/02-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
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12:01:29 <AndyS> scribe+
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12:02:21 <bergos> present+
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12:02:38 <AndyS> elianaP: Some attendance in this slot
12:02:42 <ajnelson-nist> present+
12:02:49 <elianaP> present+
12:02:50 <AndyS> .. two points in the agenda
12:02:55 <caribou> present+
12:03:05 <AndyS> bergos: RDF 1.2
12:03:31 <AndyS> ... with and without associated asserted triple for a triple term
12:03:40 <AndyS> ... wantign to make people aware of this
12:04:10 <AndyS> s/wantign/wanting/
12:04:22 <AndyS> ...  I need some input
12:04:29 <David> present+
12:04:32 <AndyS> present+
12:05:02 <elianaP> https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/issues/379
12:05:12 <TallTed> q+
12:05:53 <AndyS> tallted: RDF 1.2. introduces triple term  <<(:s :p :o )>>
12:06:17 <AndyS> ... It is not a triple in the graph (i.e. it is not a member of the set of triples)
12:06:27 <ajnelson-nist> q+
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12:06:38 <AndyS> ... e.g. "joe said <<( :s :p :o )>>"
12:06:53 <AndyS> ack TallTed
12:07:24 <AndyS> ajnelson-nist Is there a property for an asserted triple?
12:07:26 <AndyS> q+
12:08:04 <simonstey> q+
12:08:10 <AndyS> ... I can see a UC for is for either in the base graph or inferred?
12:08:29 <ajnelson-nist> ack me
12:08:32 <AndyS> ack  ajnelson-nist
12:09:49 <TallTed> A "fact", being a triple in the graph, is asserted. A "triple term", not being a triple in the graph, is not asserted.
12:11:02 <AndyS> simonstey: we need to clarify how SHACL deals with triple term where the triple is not asserted
12:11:12 <bergos> q+
12:11:26 <AndyS> ack simonstey
12:11:45 <AndyS> ... how to validate the triple term
12:11:48 <simonstey> q-
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12:13:10 <AndyS> bergos: a triple term in the object position as an RDF term.
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12:13:31 <HolgerK> present+
12:13:44 <AndyS> ... we can have a description of a triple in a another graph e.g. "I disagree with"
12:14:00 <AndyS> ... or a change log for deletion of a triple.
12:14:15 <AndyS> ack bergos
12:14:36 <AndyS> ... should we deal with triples not asserted
12:15:21 <AndyS> ... we have reifiers   _:r rdf:reifies <<(:s :p :o)>> .
12:15:41 <AndyS> .. do we need target for triple terms? with or without further restrictions?
12:16:01 <AndyS> s/.. d/... do/
12:16:08 <TallTed> note that reifiers (identifiers of reified triples) are not necessarily blank nodes; they can be URI/IRI/URL (whatever is the current catchall)
12:16:58 <AndyS> ... ignoring everything not asserted will not work.
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12:17:28 <AndyS> elianaP: uses case for looking inside triple term
12:17:43 <AndyS> bergos: question is how to do this.
12:17:56 <AndyS> ... use a node expression?
12:18:04 <AndyS> ... new target?
12:19:15 <AndyS> q?
12:19:28 <simonstey> q+
12:20:09 <simonstey> scribe: simonstey
12:20:13 <simonstey> scribe+
12:20:26 <TallTed> s/scribe: simonstey//
12:21:33 <simonstey> AndyS: Need to address Alex's point about inference - that's separate from triple terms
12:21:48 <simonstey> ... How you treat inferences isn't particular to triple terms. Whether triples asserted by inference or other means is different mechanism
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12:22:51 <simonstey> ...  Triple terms mostly appear as objects of RDF reification statements
12:23:08 <simonstey> ...  The subject gives you a resource to talk about this use of the triple term; Sometimes called an "occurrence" - you can make comments about it
12:23:18 <simonstey> ... Can reuse same triple term with different RDF reification IRIs for different comments
12:23:30 <simonstey> ... Allows talking about different times you've seen this triple term without mixing them up
12:23:40 <simonstey> ... For finding them, RDF reification provides navigation method
12:24:56 <simonstey> ... bergos touched on working backwards from triple term to access internal structure
12:25:14 <simonstey> ... Triple terms create nesting concept - triples as terms within graph; Non-asserted triple terms might need recursive target application
12:25:31 <simonstey> ... Need nesting operation like target that works within constraints; Example: find triple terms, then constrain paths to those with specific subjects
12:25:43 <ajnelson-nist> q+
12:25:48 <AndyS> ack me
12:25:49 <TallTed> Note that "RDF*" and "RDF-star" are old names for preliminary drafts of what will ship as "RDF 1.2". Best not to use the old names, to avoid future confusion.
12:26:21 <AndyS> scribe+
12:26:21 <bergos> q+
12:26:43 <simonstey> q-
12:27:06 <AndyS> nick: should support somethin in SHACL core as it is part of RDF 1.2
12:27:25 <AndyS> ajnelson-nist: is property shape adequate for the task?
12:27:42 <AndyS> ... what about a "triple term part"?
12:27:47 <AndyS> q+
12:27:53 <AndyS> ack ajnelson-nist
12:27:58 <simonstey> ... Statement: SHACL should handle RDF triple terms in core without node expressions, Triple terms are part of RDF language now - we should cover basic handling, Need special convenience functions like Andy suggested,  Core should handle: follow path -> hit triple pattern -> access subject/predicate/object, Should work whether triple terms are
12:27:58 <simonstey> asserted or not
12:28:08 <simonstey> scribe-
12:28:24 <AndyS> SUBJECT(<<(:s :p :o)>>) --> :s
12:29:53 <ajnelson-nist> ack me
12:30:01 <AndyS> nick: in triples, step "get subject" then keep pathing.
12:30:19 <AndyS> ... "in" and "out" operator
12:32:16 <AndyS> ... are there UC for this from RDF 1.2 WG?
12:33:09 <AndyS> ... how settled is the design from RDF 1.2?
12:33:33 <AndyS> TallTed: not set in stone but in (baked) clay
12:33:56 <AndyS> ... WG extended for 2 years
12:35:06 <AndyS> ... deal with errata, triple terms, focus (1) easier to talk about treiple not asserted and (2) syntax for talk about the triple and assert it
12:35:08 <AndyS> q+
12:35:33 <AndyS> ... reduce the user burden in expected common pattern
12:35:58 <AndyS> ... classical reification seem as clunky and hard to use.
12:37:18 <AndyS> ack bergos
12:37:49 <AndyS> bergos: homwwork needed. Path in, and also how to validate.
12:38:03 <ajnelson-nist> q+
12:38:51 <TallTed> s/treiple not asserted and (2) syntax for talk about the triple and assert/a triple without asserting it; and (2) syntax for talking about the triple and simultaneously asserting/
12:40:50 <AndyS> ack me
12:41:23 <bergos> q+
12:41:25 <AndyS> ack ajnelson-nist
12:41:33 <ajnelson-nist> q+
12:42:20 <AndyS> https://www.w3.org/TR/sparql12-query/#func-triple-terms
12:45:14 <mgberg> q+
12:45:25 <ajnelson-nist> ack me
12:46:41 <ajnelson-nist> I think that's a reasonable example, simonstey.
12:46:51 <AndyS> ack bergos
12:47:03 <AndyS> begos: moving forward
12:47:19 <AndyS> ... I can make some proposals
12:47:37 <AndyS> ... need feedback and discussion
12:48:36 <AndyS> ... on #379
12:49:35 <AndyS> s/begos:/bergos:
12:49:37 <AndyS> q?
12:49:44 <AndyS> ack mgberg
12:50:30 <mgberg> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-concepts/#dfn-classicize
12:50:31 <AndyS> mgberg: RDF 1.2 transformation to non-triple term form ("classicise", "unstar")
12:50:48 <AndyS> q+
12:51:08 <ajnelson-nist> q+
12:51:18 <AndyS> ... RDF 1.2 triple terms in an RDF 1.1 graph
12:51:48 <AndyS> ajnelson-nist: sounds like a SHACL profile
12:51:53 <AndyS> ack ajnelson-nist
12:51:58 <mgberg> ack me
12:54:43 <ajnelson-nist> q+
12:54:48 <AndyS> ackme
12:54:51 <AndyS> ack me
12:55:48 <AndyS> ajnelson-nist: RDF 1.2 data with a RDF 1.1 triple store
12:58:15 <ajnelson-nist> ack me
13:01:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/02-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
13:01:54 <TallTed> chair: elianaP
13:02:17 <TallTed> s/scribe: __TBD__//
13:02:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/02-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
13:02:39 <TallTed> present+
13:02:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/02-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
13:04:17 <TallTed> s/ackme//
13:05:23 <TallTed> s/ajnelson-nist Is/ajnelson-nist: Is/
13:07:00 <TallTed> s/asserted or not/... asserted or not/
13:07:44 <TallTed> s|SUBJECT(<<(: s :p :o)>>) --> :s|`SUBJECT(<<(: s :p :o)>>) --> :s`|
13:07:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/02-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
13:09:40 <TallTed> s/SUBJECT(<<(: s :p :o)>>) --> :s/... SUBJECT(<<(: s :p :o)>>) --> :s/
13:09:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/02-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
13:10:49 <TallTed> Zakim, bye
13:10:49 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been bergos, ajnelson-nist, elianaP, caribou, David, AndyS, HolgerK, TallTed
13:10:49 <Zakim> Zakim has left #data-shapes
13:10:54 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
13:10:54 <RRSAgent> I see no action items