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13:59:27 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
13:59:27 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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13:59:31 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/05/30-rdf-star-irc
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14:00:36 <AndyS> zakim, this is SPARQl TF
14:00:36 <Zakim> got it, AndyS
14:00:39 <TallTed> meeting: SPARQL 1.2 Task Force
14:00:59 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/7ce3edfd-1ad4-4d36-8f19-8f9f49118ed4/20250530T140000/
14:00:59 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:00:59 <agendabot> agenda+ Scribe?
14:00:59 <agendabot> agenda+ Depending on attendance/availability: -> round table on opinions and criteria https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/130
14:00:59 <agendabot> agenda+ Tests of queries that should be syntax errors: ( -> issue 2 https://github.com/w3c/sparql-dev/blob/main/SEP/SEP-0007/sep-0007.md#issue-2-substitution-happens-where-definitions-are-only-for-variables )
14:01:01 <agendabot> agenda+ Tests process update
14:01:04 <agendabot> agenda+ Topics for next time
14:01:05 <Tpt> present+
14:01:24 <AndyS> present+
14:01:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:01:43 <TallTed> present+
14:01:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:02:15 <AndyS> zakim, open item 1
14:02:15 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Scribe? -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:02:44 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/05/29-rdf-star-minutes.html
14:02:44 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/06/05-rdf-star-minutes.html
14:02:49 <james> present+
14:02:55 <james> scribe+
14:03:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:03:59 <AndyS> zakim, next item
14:03:59 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Depending on attendance/availability: -> round table on opinions and criteria https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/130 -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:04:00 <TallTed> chair: AndyS
14:04:20 <TallTed> Zakim, next item
14:04:20 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, TallTed
14:04:51 <james> andys: olaf is not present despite his request for the round table, so we will skip it for today
14:06:44 <william-vw> william-vw has joined #rdf-star
14:06:47 <william-vw> present+
14:06:52 <pfps> sounds good to me
14:06:53 <james> andys: let us look at the tests for queries which should cause syntax errors and get an update from james an peter on testing
14:06:55 <william-vw> +1
14:07:01 <AndyS> zakim, next item
14:07:01 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Tests of queries that should be syntax errors: ( -> issue 2
14:07:03 <Zakim> ... https://github.com/w3c/sparql-dev/blob/main/SEP/SEP-0007/sep-0007.md#issue-2-substitution-happens-where-definitions-are-only-for-variables ) -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:08:05 <pfps> q+
14:09:21 <james> andys: introduces issue 2
14:09:43 <AndyS> FILTER EXISTS { BIND ( :e AS ?z )  }
14:09:46 <james> pfps: is that description (quoted from the title) adequate.
14:09:56 <james> pfps: it says nothing about scoping
14:10:46 <james> q+
14:11:24 <james> pfps: we need a clearer description of the issue
14:13:01 <james> pfps: some substitution would be syntactically illegal, but there is another issue, that there can be scoping violations, which is a diffferent issue.
14:13:20 <AndyS> ack pfps
14:13:31 <AndyS> ack james
14:14:10 <pfps> One problem is that the current spec can transform something like BIND ( :e AS :f )
14:14:47 <AndyS> https://github.com/afs/SPARQL-exists/blob/main/tests/exists-2-def-var/exists-bad-syntax-01.rq
14:15:38 <pfps> Another problem is that a BIND is illegal if the binding variable is in-scope, so ?z :a :b FILTER EXISTS { BIND ( :c as ?z ) } might be illegal
14:15:43 <james> james:  it would help to have an example from the tests. andys suggestede the reference above.
14:15:45 <james> q+
14:16:12 <james> andys: if one were to substitute the bind would be invalid sysntax
14:16:22 <william-vw> ah so the problem is that one can only bind to an unused variable?
14:17:22 <william-vw> q+
14:17:26 <AndyS> ack james
14:17:26 <james> james: are we at liberty either to say that this is invalid syntax, or may we change the exists interpretation rules so that it is valid.
14:17:41 <AndyS> ack william-ww
14:17:50 <AndyS> ack william-vw
14:17:52 <james> andys: we are at liberty to do either because the current interpetation bows up
14:18:14 <AndyS> { :s :p1 ?o BIND("1" AS ?o) }
14:18:25 <james> william-vw: is the restriction that one cannot bind already in scope variables?
14:18:37 <james> pfps: yes.
14:19:05 <james> pfps: there is a type in the spec as what it says about the soping rules is (at leat) confusing if not incorrect.
14:19:45 <james> pfps: a fix for exists may actually make the working correct, but i will put in an issue
14:19:59 <AndyS> https://github.com/afs/SPARQL-exists/blob/main/tests/exists-2-def-var/exists-bad-syntax-04.rq
14:20:06 <james> q+
14:20:47 <AndyS> ack james
14:21:07 <james> james: how to demonstrate alternative interpretations
14:21:26 <james> andys: the most important thing is to have tests which demonstrate the spec.
14:22:28 <james> andys: if there are interesting ways that they can be illegal (where these are negative syntax tests) if we decide on a solution for them, then we can reuse these tests.
14:22:52 <james> andys: before we introduce additional tests we should disucss opionoins and criteria.
14:23:56 <AndyS> q?
14:23:59 <james> andys: syntax-4 test has a projection. (which adequately covers thos case?)
14:24:45 <james> pfps: this is illegal, depending on the solution. there has been a proposal to do no injection where the exists runs independently
14:25:04 <james> andys: that solution would change queries which are curently legal.
14:25:29 <james> pfps: agreed, that would not satisfy one of the reasobale criterie (presever existing queries)
14:27:00 <james> andys: the select form (#4) is no different from the bind case
14:27:04 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/4 -> #4
14:27:09 <AndyS> https://github.com/afs/SPARQL-exists/blob/main/tests/exists-2-def-var/exists-bad-syntax-03.rq
14:28:22 <james> andys: bad-syntax-3 is related in that it could be legal for some interpretations, but for substitution semantics it is invalid syntax.
14:29:13 <james> andys: bound is a special functional form
14:29:57 <james> q+
14:30:11 <AndyS> ack james
14:31:23 <james> james: do we collect the alternative results for different implementations?
14:31:37 <james> andys: they _could_ server as informative guidance
14:32:02 <AndyS> https://github.com/afs/SPARQL-exists/blob/main/tests/exists-2-def-var/exists-good-syntax-01.rq
14:32:39 <james> andys: #1 is a minimal query which one might one to get to work.
14:32:39 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/1 -> CLOSED Issue 1 No activity (nor even README) since WG approval in August (by TallTed)
14:32:51 <james> pfps: that remains fin in any imaginable solution?
14:33:18 <james> andys: in that specific form, yes, but in other combinations it could become invalid
14:34:57 <james> andys: threr was somehting in sql9 where a select queryy could appear in a project position, which should return one rwo.
14:35:21 <james> ...: there is not complete consistency across implementation, but there is convergence around lateral.
14:36:02 <james> ...: not certain it is in the spec.
14:36:36 <james> andys: the sql spec does define everything bottom up
14:36:50 <james> andys: i wanteed to bring up these as covering the cases.
14:37:08 <james> pfps: i agree, except that ... i have to look again.
14:37:34 <james> andys: the outcomes in the manifest should be treated with skepticism.
14:37:39 <AndyS> q?
14:37:48 <AndyS> zakim, next item
14:37:48 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Tests process update -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:38:08 <AndyS> scribe+
14:38:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:39:01 <AndyS> james: how to best presnt corrleated results. pfps has some results that could be presented
14:39:21 <AndyS> s/corrleated/correlated/
14:39:53 <AndyS> ... or use to show results not as test outcomes (yes/no)
14:40:57 <AndyS> ... could change EARL reports to also accept inline results for the acceptable criteria to operate in the same way
14:41:38 <AndyS> ... https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2025May/0031.html
14:44:02 <AndyS> ... do the endpoitns pfps is using, allow data to be uploaded?
14:44:12 <AndyS> pfps: fixed graph
14:44:49 <AndyS> ... I have been running systems on my server
14:45:07 <AndyS> james: no public GSP?
14:47:02 <AndyS> ...you run 3/4 implementation locally?
14:47:09 <AndyS> pfps: yes
14:48:34 <AndyS> james: can we change (extend) the EARL reports?
14:49:28 <AndyS> pfps: want a proper result format - ideally JSON output maybe XML.
14:49:53 <AndyS> q+
14:52:14 <AndyS> (discussion of processing query execution results)
14:55:26 <james> pfps: the implementations do not offer remote sparql services that james' script expected.
14:55:56 <james> pfps: it would be possible to rerun the tests and save the results as json documents.
14:56:01 <AndyS> scribe-
14:56:06 <AndyS> zakim, next item
14:56:06 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, AndyS
14:56:12 <AndyS> q?
14:56:15 <AndyS> ack me
14:56:17 <AndyS> zakim, next item
14:56:18 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Topics for next time -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:56:35 <james> scribe+
14:57:02 <james> andys: next week we can discuss the criteria. will try te get gregory in attendance as well, althoug that is early for him.
14:57:24 <james> andys: it is an important discussion and we need the right people herer.
14:57:48 <james> ... othr wise, what test area shoudl we look at?
14:58:15 <james> pfps: will look at qt as the ranswer property. it is just a matter to run everything.
14:58:49 <james> william: what is the process to submit another issue?
14:59:29 <james> william: something about negated property sets in paths. the behaviour is unintutive.
14:59:53 <james> andys: if you think it is errate, we need a test case.
15:00:12 <james> william: i found it confusing enough that it was hard to formulate a test cse.
15:00:27 <james> andys: try an open endpoint to develop the problem description
15:01:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:01:18 <TallTed> Zakim, bye
15:01:18 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Tpt, AndyS, TallTed, james, william-vw
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15:01:28 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
15:01:28 <RRSAgent> I see no action items