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12:58:01 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/05/28-matf-irc
12:58:01 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:58:02 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:58:02 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 28 May 2025
12:58:03 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:58:10 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 28 May 2025
12:58:15 <JJ> chair+
12:58:21 <JJ> agenda+ 2.1.1 Keyboard
12:58:26 <JJ> agenda+ 2.1.2 No Keyboard Trap
12:58:31 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.1 Bypass Blocks
12:59:24 <Tanya> Tanya has joined #matf
13:00:44 <Joe_Humbert> present+
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13:00:51 <Carol> Carol has joined #MATF
13:00:57 <Tanya> present+
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13:01:07 <Carol> present+
13:01:40 <JJ> regrets+ quintinb
13:01:44 <JJ> regrets+ TimGravemaker
13:01:46 <JJ> regrets+ hdv
13:01:55 <JJ> regrets+ Julian
13:02:11 <pauljadam> present+
13:02:47 <Jon_Gibbins> present+
13:03:35 <JJ> Zakim, nominate a scribe
13:03:35 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Carol
13:04:32 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/wiki/IRC-Cheatsheet
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13:05:07 <Detlev> present+
13:05:43 <JJ> Zakim, nominate a scribe
13:05:43 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Jon_Gibbins
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13:06:15 <GleidsonRamos> present+
13:06:21 <JJ> Jon_Gibbins: <Summary of what you said>
13:06:26 <Karla> present+
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13:06:29 <Detlev> colon
13:06:35 <Megan_Pletzer> present+
13:06:44 <JJ> scribe: Jon_Gibbins
13:07:47 <JJ> agenda+ MATF project planning
13:07:59 <JJ> open agendum 4
13:08:11 <JJ> What's needed:
13:08:11 <JJ> - We need to create (sub) issues for each recorded action, to ensure they are tracked and can be assigned to someone
13:08:11 <JJ> - All (sub) issues need to be added to the MATF Project board, reflecting their status, e.g. To-Do, In Progress, In Review, Done
13:08:11 <JJ> - We need to identify which (sub) issues are blocking the progress on other issues, e.g. missing a certain definition can block the drafting of a certain success criterion
13:08:13 <JJ> - The blocking issues need to be put "In Progress" and we need to find candidates that are able to work on them
13:08:13 <JJ> - We need to change the way the agenda is created, instead of going through issues chronologically by their variation type, we should focus on blocking issues, and focus on completing "unblocked" issues
13:08:42 <JJ> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/147
13:10:59 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:11:06 <Jamie> present+
13:14:09 <Jon_Gibbins> JJ: Summarises what he and Tanya discussed about project planning using Github issues and project tools.
13:14:14 <JJ> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/56
13:14:25 <JJ> ^ Link is to WCAG project planning
13:16:09 <Jon_Gibbins> +1
13:16:10 <JJ> Do you agree with what's needed?
13:16:11 <GleidsonRamos> +1
13:16:12 <Karla> +1
13:16:15 <Megan_Pletzer> +1
13:16:15 <Carol> +1
13:16:16 <Tanya> +1
13:16:20 <Jon_Gibbins> I think this is a good move.
13:16:34 <Joe_Humbert> +1 we need something to move things forward
13:17:14 <JJ> open agendum 1
13:17:26 <Jon_Gibbins> JJ: The group should take some time to think about these suggestions and feedback via the group Slack to directly to JJ
13:18:20 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/12
13:18:31 <JJ> https://w3c.github.io/matf/#success-criterion-2-1-1-keyboard
13:20:25 <Jon_Gibbins> JJ: Previous discussions have been around definition of “keyboard interface” versus “accessibility interface” in mobile environments. Need a definition to move forward.
13:21:22 <Jon_Gibbins> Jon_Gibbins: I fear that “accessibility interface” is too vague or open to misinterpretation.
13:22:26 <Jon_Gibbins> q+
13:22:34 <JJ> ack Jon_Gibbins
13:23:53 <JJ> Jon_Gibbins: Keyboard focus in apps is different compared to the web. Focus order (assistive technologies) vs Tab order (keyboard)
13:25:08 <Tanya> q+
13:25:08 <JJ> Jon_Gibbins: My interpretation with anything keyboard interface related is some kind of device with keys
13:26:14 <JJ> ack Tanya
13:26:37 <Jon_Gibbins> Jon_Gibbins: Just to clarify, I mean assistve technology (like a screen reader) is about reading order / virtual cursor, whereas keyboard is about Tab / focus order.
13:27:29 <Detlev> q+
13:27:44 <Carol> I would think of 1.3.2 for reading order
13:28:10 <JJ> ack Detlev
13:28:46 <Jon_Gibbins> Tanya: When auditing, sometimes issues do not cleanly fit into 2.1.1 Keyboard, e.g. interface elements are focusable by assistive technology and not by keyboard or vice versa.
13:29:39 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/51#issuecomment-2687884961
13:30:13 <Detlev> The checkpoint in EN 301 549 is 11.5.2.12 Execution of available actions
13:30:28 <Jon_Gibbins> Detlev: EN 301 549 has a success criterion that captures when an interactive element that works with keyboard is not accessible to assistive technology (11.3.212. “Execution of available actions”)
13:31:03 <Jon_Gibbins> Detlev: Correction 11.3.2.12
13:31:08 <Detlev> 11.5.2.12
13:32:09 <Jon_Gibbins> Detlev: Correction 11.5.2.12
13:32:20 <JJ> q?
13:33:30 <Jon_Gibbins> JJ: Accessibility Actions available on iOS and Android also need to be considered as an option for providing actions to mobile assistive technology software.
13:34:14 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:34:14 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 2.1.2 No Keyboard Trap -- taken up [from JJ]
13:34:29 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/30
13:34:38 <JJ> https://w3c.github.io/matf/#success-criterion-2-1-2-no-keyboard-trap
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13:38:18 <Jon_Gibbins> JJ: Some issues around “exit methods” may include the common use of on-screen back buttons for navigation, hardware back buttons, Esc key being standard keyboard command.
13:41:22 <Jon_Gibbins> JJ: Previous discussions of SC 2.1.2, has been around these exit methods, including relation to assistive technology features, such as VoiceOver’s Z gesture (“scrub”, or “escape” gesture)
13:41:32 <JJ> Do the actions listed for 2.1.2 capture everything needed to draft the content?
13:42:05 <Jon_Gibbins> q+
13:42:15 <Tanya> +1
13:42:19 <JJ> ack Jon_Gibbins
13:42:20 <Detlev> +1
13:42:20 <Karla> +1
13:42:22 <Joe_Humbert> +1
13:43:36 <pauljadam> There's no WCAG requirement to maintain focus after orientation change
13:44:24 <Detlev> what about 1.3.2?
13:44:47 <Jon_Gibbins> Detlev:  1.3.2 is certainly the nearest
13:45:18 <Jon_Gibbins> pauljadam: The orientation change is simply an example scenario explaining the behaviour, not a failure
13:45:48 <pauljadam> On Input or On Focus can be used if focus is lost during those events
13:46:14 <Jon_Gibbins> pauljadam: True.
13:46:32 <JJ> q?
13:47:04 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:47:04 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 2.4.1 Bypass Blocks -- taken up [from JJ]
13:47:21 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/8
13:47:30 <JJ> https://w3c.github.io/matf/#success-criterion-2-1-2-no-keyboard-trap
13:51:52 <JJ> Definition of "set of Web pages / set of software programs" in mobile application context -> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/11
13:52:25 <Detlev> q+
13:53:01 <JJ> Discussion on defining "view"
13:53:05 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/286
13:54:41 <Detlev> @JJ are you watching the queue?
13:55:14 <JJ> ack Detlev
13:55:17 <Jon_Gibbins> JJ: https://w3c.github.io/matf/#success-criterion-2-4-1-bypass-blocks
13:55:29 <Jon_Gibbins> JJ: 2.4.1 requires a definition for “screens” or “views” in mobile applications to replace the term “web pages”. “Set of software programs” does not seem to apply well in a mobile environment, so “set of web pages” is perhaps a closer fit.
13:56:13 <JJ> Poll: Are we in agreement to replace "set of software" with "set of views"?
13:56:42 <Jon_Gibbins> q+
13:56:51 <pauljadam> on iOS you can create Containers for VoiceOver which can have accessible names, basically simulating how ARIA Landmarks work
13:57:23 <Jon_Gibbins> Detlev: Perhaps 2.4.1 is not applicable to mobile apps. Depends on what we consider to constitute repeated blocks of content.
13:57:32 <pauljadam> A collapsable navigation menu is another method to meet bypass blocks
13:57:49 <Joe_Humbert> -1
13:58:10 <pauljadam> I still vote for "Page"
13:58:16 <pauljadam> +q
13:58:59 <Jon_Gibbins> Jamie Herrera votes +1 in Zoom chat
13:59:00 <Jon_Gibbins> +1
13:59:03 <JJ> clarification: replacing software with "view" or "screen" or "page"
13:59:21 <Tanya> +1
13:59:22 <Karla> +1
13:59:30 <Carol> +1
13:59:39 <pauljadam> +1 to Page
13:59:55 <JJ> ack Jon_Gibbins
14:00:01 <Detlev> +1
14:00:09 <GleidsonRamos> +1
14:01:24 <JJ> Jon_Gibbins: we need a working version for the 'sets of XXX' definition and enhance that as we move forward
14:01:43 <JJ> zakim, close the queue
14:01:43 <Zakim> ok, JJ, the speaker queue is closed
14:02:35 <JJ> Jon_Gibbins: Figure out what type of landmarks / semantics we have in Android and iOS to mark containers
14:02:47 <JJ> ack pauljadam
14:02:47 <Joe_Humbert> are we going to align with what the larger group decides on the new term?
14:03:57 <JJ> ideally yes, I think it would help if we have our internal version, align that when the definition is finalized in the larger group
14:03:57 <Jon_Gibbins> pauljadam: We can define named regions of a screen in a mobnile app, providing semantics like ARIA landmarks.
14:04:58 <Jon_Gibbins> exit
14:05:16 <JJ> present+ Jamie
14:05:18 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:05:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/28-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:58:33 <JJ> JJ has joined #matf
14:58:35 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
14:58:35 <RRSAgent> I see no action items