IRC log of tt on 2025-05-22

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15:00:02 [Zakim]
Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:00:14 [nigel]
agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/307
15:00:21 [nigel]
Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/05/08-tt-minutes.html
15:00:28 [nigel]
Present: Nigel
15:00:31 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
15:01:42 [nigel]
Present+ Matt
15:01:56 [nigel]
Present+ Chris_Needham
15:04:57 [nigel]
Present+ Cyril
15:05:25 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
15:05:50 [cpn]
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15:06:16 [cpn]
scribe+ cpn
15:06:20 [nigel]
Nigel: Today: note publications, DAPT, IMSC 1.3, TPAC planning, and Charter review
15:06:37 [cpn]
... Anything else?
15:07:06 [cpn]
Matt: User groups for DAPT, people making systems that use it
15:07:39 [nigel]
Topic: Republication of png-hdr-pq WG Note
15:07:50 [nigel]
Nigel: Note published at https://www.w3.org/TR/2025/NOTE-png-hdr-pq-20250518/ and auto-publication on PR merge now enabled.
15:08:21 [cpn]
Nigel: Any comments or questions?
15:08:25 [cpn]
(none)
15:08:27 [nigel]
Topic: Apply streamlined publication to all of Note track documents
15:08:53 [cpn]
Nigel: This has been done, for png-hdr-pq and DAPT Recs, but AFAICT not on DAPT profile registry
15:09:18 [cpn]
... so it's in progress
15:09:31 [nigel]
Topic: DAPT
15:09:59 [nigel]
Subtopic: Transition DAPT requirements WG draft Note as formal Note
15:10:06 [nigel]
Nigel: dapt-reqs published as WG Note on 12th May at https://www.w3.org/TR/2025/NOTE-dapt-reqs-20250512/
15:10:31 [cpn]
Nigel: There are no open issues on dapt-reqs at the moment
15:10:41 [cpn]
s/DAPT Recs/dapt-reqs/
15:11:17 [cpn]
Nigel: Actually, there are two PRs. One is for publishing via GitHub Action, which has been done
15:11:28 [cpn]
... The other one needs input
15:11:31 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/dapt-reqs/pull/23 Add links to MAUR requirements w3c/dapt-reqs#23
15:12:10 [cpn]
Nigel: This PR needs a review. It addresses issue #5 that Cyril opened
15:12:11 [nigel]
Present+ Gary
15:13:04 [nigel]
Subtopic: DAPT User Group
15:13:59 [cpn]
Matt: Our workflow requires a post-production script, they come in as Word documents, but we'd like it as DAPT
15:14:16 [cpn]
... We'd upload them to Limecraft, align them and produce a basic subtitle caption file
15:14:33 [cpn]
... We'd add in any sound effects, etc.
15:14:54 [cpn]
... We want them to support DAPT, and they'd like to connect with others working with DAPT
15:15:15 [atsushi]
atsushi has joined #tt
15:15:20 [nigel]
Present+ Atsushi
15:15:41 [cpn]
Cyril: Can you clarify what changes Limecraft want in DAPT?
15:16:47 [cpn]
Matt: It's not so much that they want changes. It would be good to have a mechanism to have dialog to ensure that aren't lots of different variants
15:17:11 [cpn]
Cyril: Last time I explained that Netflix intends to release open source software to produce DAPT from TTAL scripts
15:17:32 [cpn]
... An option could be to use TTAL software to produce DAPT, would that help?
15:17:49 [cpn]
Matt: Yes, but for me it's about opening up the discussion beyond this WG
15:18:00 [cpn]
Cyril: I can see if we have contact with them
15:18:25 [cpn]
Nigel: There may be implementers who aren't W3C participants who want to compare notes. I can think of at least 3 options, 2 of those exist
15:19:10 [cpn]
... Existing are: the Audio Description Community Group, which could be expanded in scope, or create a new CG. Or if people don't want to come to W3C, it could be in scope for the CCSUBS group
15:19:44 [cpn]
... Thirdly, we could find a home for a DAPT user group. That might be preferable, so it's clear. There's an IMF user group, and DASH-IF
15:19:50 [cpn]
... They need funding to operate
15:20:17 [cpn]
... Any of those could work. I see the need to compare notes on interoperability
15:20:33 [cpn]
Matt: Yes, something beyond sharing the spec, which can raise questions that need addressing
15:21:00 [cpn]
Cyril: At minimum, a mailing list for exchanging bug reports, without fear of sending reports to the spec authors
15:21:23 [cpn]
... Publish guidelines, similar to what DASH-IF has done. A Community Group could be perfect for that
15:21:52 [cpn]
Nigel: The CG provides a mailing list. Could start there, and see if that works for people
15:22:17 [cpn]
... It might need a meeting structure, not frequent, every 3 months, but to show that other people are there.
15:22:44 [cpn]
... How to progress this? I can send messages out, but I wonder what's the most effective way
15:23:09 [cpn]
Matt: I'll be at the CCSUBS meeting in Berlin, could request an hour there?
15:23:53 [cpn]
Cyril: Creating a CG is easy. Could get that ready and create following CCSUBS
15:24:22 [cpn]
Nigel: If we create a new one we should close the existing CG to avoid confusion. Or repurpose the existing one. I don't know if the group can be renamed
15:25:01 [cpn]
Cyril: A timed text scripts CG. Having a CG named audio description might be misleading
15:25:08 [cpn]
Nigel: Yes
15:25:28 [cpn]
... Let's think about it, and see what we can set up. It's a good idea
15:25:59 [nigel]
Subtopic: Test suite
15:26:22 [cpn]
Nigel: I haven't seen any movement on the issues about tests. I haven't made PRs to add tests
15:26:38 [cpn]
... Ideally we have someone else look at my analysis to see if it makes sense
15:26:46 [cpn]
... I can create tests if it looks about right
15:26:54 [cpn]
Cyril: I'll try to do that tomororow
15:27:36 [nigel]
Subtopic: Explicitly permit daptm:represents on tt, body, div, p and span w3c/dapt#294
15:28:43 [cpn]
Nigel: Andreas raised the issue, but he's not here today. If anyone wants to look, it's a minor issue about the data model
15:29:56 [cpn]
Nigel: Anything else on DAPT?
15:29:58 [cpn]
(nothing)
15:30:02 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC 1.3
15:30:12 [nigel]
Subtopic: Liaison response received from EBU
15:30:22 [nigel]
-> Member-only link to liaison response: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2025May/0000.html
15:30:54 [cpn]
Nigel: They asked for DAPT metadata to be allowed in IMSC documents. I don't think anything prevents that
15:31:26 [cpn]
... Do we need a call out to say something about compatibility with IMSC?
15:31:56 [nigel]
-> https://www.w3.org/TR/ttml-imsc1.2/#foreign-elements IMSC 1.2 Foreign Element and Attributes
15:32:18 [cpn]
Cyril: From IMSC perspective DAPT is a foreign namespace
15:33:13 [cpn]
Nigel: If you want to turn DAPT into captions, to what extend do you preserve existing metadata. A question about good practice
15:33:59 [cpn]
... By preserving translation information in the player, you can use that to drive spoken subtitles
15:34:12 [cpn]
... Data that's always been missing so far, but how we have a scheme for describing it
15:34:48 [cpn]
... DAPT data can tell you if the subtitle text was translated from a different language, so you can use that for spoken subtitles
15:35:16 [cpn]
Cyril: I don't follow
15:36:27 [cpn]
Nigel: If there's markup to show which subtitles are translations, the player, if it wants, can trigger text to speech on those specific subtitles, to get an audible translation
15:37:34 [cpn]
... I heard this in action in Holland, 10 years ago. They do it using broadcast subtitles, and special set top boxes. A Dutch news programme, in Dutch, cuts to someone speaking in English, and the translation was spoken by the STB. That needs the translation data present
15:37:55 [cpn]
Cyril: I see
15:38:27 [cpn]
Nigel: It would be useful to call out somewhere, whether in DAPT or another document
15:38:38 [cpn]
Cyril: Could be in an appendix
15:38:51 [cpn]
Nigel: Anything else on IMSC?
15:38:55 [cpn]
(nothing)
15:39:03 [nigel]
Topic: TPAC 2025 Planning
15:39:39 [cpn]
Gary: It's the same as previous years, ask how many meeting slots you want, and which groups to have joint meetings with or avoid overlaps with
15:40:06 [cpn]
... For us this year, it's more complicated as it's in Japan. If members aren't there in person we might not have quorum
15:40:34 [cpn]
Nigel: I don't know about my attendance right now. We have to fill this out in about a month
15:40:57 [cpn]
... We'll get a lot of Japanese attendees, would be useful to have their input
15:41:30 [cpn]
... I'd like to be able to discuss with people involved in ARIB. Going there in person might help us resolve the IMSC ARIB issue
15:42:11 [cpn]
... In terms of other work, the timing might be we can confirm transition of DAPT to Rec in person
15:42:17 [cpn]
... Could also have a CG meeting
15:42:31 [cpn]
... I'd hope we can also share progress with MEIG
15:43:13 [nigel]
... Also Media WG and MSE carrying captions.
15:43:23 [nigel]
Chris: Absolutely, both of those topics would be welcome,
15:43:29 [nigel]
.. happy to organise joint meetings to support that work.
15:43:41 [nigel]
.. In general, what I would suggest is request the timeslots now. It's easier
15:43:54 [nigel]
.. to release unneeded timeslots than to add new ones that you do need, late in the process.
15:44:04 [nigel]
.. Experience last year - MEIG had more agenda requests than I at first expected.
15:44:18 [nigel]
Gary: That makes sense, plan for it to happen, then cancel if it turns out nobody can come.
15:45:20 [cpn]
Nigel: In the past we've created an agenda page. We can do it in the TTWG GitHub, as a wiki or issue or discussion. I can transcribe what we've just said into that tomorrow
15:45:34 [cpn]
... Which days would we want to meet?
15:46:00 [cpn]
... There's often pressure to meet at the beginning or end of the week
15:46:25 [nigel]
Chris: I thought similar to last year - MEIG could have a few slots on Thursday,
15:46:40 [nigel]
.. then Thursday for the Media WG, but it ends up being the event team that reconciles all the slots.
15:46:51 [nigel]
.. The other thing to bear in mind is that this year, because there was so much interest
15:47:01 [nigel]
.. in breakout sessions there are more slots during the week dedicated to breakout time,
15:47:16 [nigel]
.. so the format for the Wednesday is a bit different and there are breakouts on the other days too.
15:47:28 [nigel]
.. So there might be less time allocated for groups to fit their sessions in.
15:47:52 [nigel]
.. I think between those groups it might be good to come up with an overall structure of the week,
15:47:59 [nigel]
.. because there will be overlapping participation.
15:48:10 [nigel]
.. The other thing I would suggest is if we want to coordinate joint time with the APA WG.
15:48:26 [nigel]
.. We did a 3-way meeting with APA, MEIG and TTWG the past couple of years which was good
15:48:42 [nigel]
Gary: They were always interesting. Might be easier in November because I don't think it
15:48:56 [nigel]
.. overlaps any other major events especially for likely attendees of our meetings.
15:49:51 [cpn]
Nigel: Could be MEIG Monday, TTWG Tuesday, Media WG Thurdsay, then joint with APA on Friday
15:49:56 [nigel]
Chris: Yes that's the kind of thing I was thinking of
15:50:40 [cpn]
Cyril: I'd prefer having all the timed text related meetings all at the beginning or end of the week, not spread out
15:51:05 [cpn]
... It's preferable to only come for just a few days rather than the whole week
15:51:17 [cpn]
... But I'll follow what the group decides
15:51:32 [cpn]
Nigel: Anything else on TPAC?
15:51:38 [cpn]
(nothing)
15:51:54 [nigel]
Topic: AOB - TTWG Charter Review
15:52:25 [cpn]
Nigel: The charter review closed on the 19th. There were no objections, some proposed changes, that Gary and I are happy with
15:52:37 [cpn]
... It looks like a formality that the group will be rechartered
15:53:09 [cpn]
Atsushi: We're asking reviewers about the proposed changes. We'll proceed with the rechartering after 1 week if there are no comments from reviewers
15:53:29 [cpn]
... So, to be announced next week
15:57:24 [nigel]
Topic: Meeting close
15:57:28 [nigel]
Nigel: Next meeting is 2025-06-05
15:58:09 [nigel]
.. Thanks everyone [adjourns meeting]
15:58:14 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/22-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:03:31 [nigel]
Chair: Nigel, Gary
16:03:45 [nigel]
Regrets: Andreas, Pierre
16:04:04 [nigel]
s/DAPT profile registry/TTML profile registry
16:05:46 [nigel]
s/tomororow/tomorrow
16:06:06 [nigel]
s/response:/response
16:06:36 [nigel]
s/but how we have a scheme/but now we have a scheme
16:08:56 [nigel]
s/... Also Media WG and MSE carrying captions./Nigel: Also Media WG and MSE carrying captions.
16:09:32 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:09:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/22-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:10:23 [nigel]
scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:10:27 [nigel]
zakim, end meeting
16:10:27 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Matt, Chris_Needham, Cyril, Gary, Atsushi
16:10:29 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:10:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/22-tt-minutes.html Zakim
16:10:36 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
16:10:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tt
16:10:42 [nigel]
rrsagent, excuse us
16:10:42 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items