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14:00:11 <toshiakikoike> present+
14:00:13 <shiestyle> zakim, start the meeting
14:00:13 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
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14:00:15 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), shiestyle
14:00:20 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
14:00:25 <shiestyle> rrsagent, make log public
14:00:34 <shiestyle> Meeting: Digital Comics TF
14:00:40 <shiestyle> Chair: Shinya Takami, Hadrien Gardeur
14:01:39 <shiestyle> Topic: Discussion for scrolled comics
14:02:21 <LaurentLM> present+ LaurentLM
14:03:04 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pm-dc
14:03:12 <gautierchomel> present+
14:03:22 <gautierchomel> scribe+
14:04:10 <gautierchomel> invite RSSAgent pm-dc
14:04:58 <gautierchomel> invite RSSAgent
14:05:05 <Hadrien> present+
14:05:17 <Dale_Rogers> present+
14:06:44 <shiestyle> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1DyHqLhzmn26kUGkHgbAAkdCOJ55LRwBBuQpews9gF6Q/edit?usp=sharing
14:07:18 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: presneting slides for context. we discussed scrolled comics since long time. We have Apple and Amazon behavior and Hadrien proposal.
14:08:06 <Hadrien> q+
14:09:06 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:09:26 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: Japanese and Taiwan communities feedback show no strong opposition.
14:11:33 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: interesting that the feedback mentions scrolls not being a layout but a behavior. I agree in general, but in the context of webtoon, the content is often formated to be scrolled, and won't render well if paginated.
14:11:46 <Dale_Rogers> q+
14:12:11 <shiestyle> ack Dale
14:13:47 <gautierchomel> Dale_Rogers: there is a difference between ignoring and trowing an error. How reading systems reacts here?
14:14:13 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: usually it's ignored if not supported.
14:14:32 <shiestyle> q+
14:15:02 <shiestyle> ack me
14:15:29 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: for a RS, whatever we do, there will be work to support those contents.
14:16:10 <LaurentLM> q+
14:16:32 <shiestyle> ack Laurent
14:16:35 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: the current way is supported by Apple and Amazon. I am not sure how long it will take to have support for the new value.
14:16:58 <Hadrien> q+
14:17:35 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: because of the missing value, historically, it has been ignored.
14:17:35 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:17:56 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: there will probably be a need for a RS rule if we want adoption.
14:18:52 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: Shinya created good examples, we can use them to test.
14:21:52 <Dale_Rogers> q+
14:22:04 <shiestyle> ack Dale
14:22:13 <gautierchomel> toshiakikoike: we don't use OPF metadata.
14:23:13 <gautierchomel> Dale_Rogers: i would love to see examples.
14:24:19 <Hadrien> https://gist.github.com/HadrienGardeur/1263d7bdf2362f33e7ab9cd9521fb93b
14:24:27 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: there are some on kadokawa website. There's also a gist. I would see ho to zip those and add them to an issue somewhere so people can check.
14:25:41 <Hadrien> Full proposal from 2024: https://gist.github.com/HadrienGardeur/273a9d195f4a938880aa0bf8d2fc5dd9
14:26:59 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: I suggest we work on a new proposal to get consensus.
14:28:46 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: this would combine a New feature and an update for compatibility. The same path we went thru when we discussed fixed layout.
14:29:56 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: agree. We have a proposal, we need feedback from Apple and Amazon.
14:29:59 <Hadrien> q+
14:30:02 <Dale_Rogers> q+
14:30:14 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:31:03 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: we can safely push as there is a fallback to support what is done by them. As it is, we won't break anything.
14:31:31 <shiestyle> ack Dale
14:31:38 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: agree, there no reason for oposition here, it's win win.
14:32:43 <Hadrien> q+
14:32:51 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:35:10 <Hadrien> q+
14:35:23 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: so we can go to the WG with this proposal. I will write an explanation of it.
14:35:30 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:36:03 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: since we have time left, i suggest we discuss a second subject: referencing images.
14:36:19 <shiestyle> Topic: referencing images
14:37:52 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: comics are images. Can we reference them in the spine so we don't need to open the HTML? I think it would improve production, maintenance and reading. And no change to the spec is needed.
14:38:27 <LaurentLM> q+
14:38:33 <shiestyle> ack Laurent
14:39:05 <shiestyle> q+
14:40:24 <shiestyle> ack me
14:40:34 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: this one is more impactfull, the RS must accepts html or svg. If we add images, that's possible with fallbacks. On EDRLab reading systems it's ok, we can get this, and that will improve the experience. I don't know for other RS.
14:41:48 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: we have dedicated RS for comics, they ingest images, to do that they exctract them from HTML now, but they don't keep anything apart from images.
14:43:05 <shiestyle> q?
14:44:45 <Dale_Rogers> q+
14:45:47 <toshiakikoike> q
14:46:19 <shiestyle> ack Dale
14:46:21 <toshiakikoike> q+
14:47:04 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: accessbility of comics should not be done as big alt text, it's not a suficient way, it should be done with guided navigation. So referencing images instead of HTML should not affect accessibility.
14:47:47 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: in the spine it's image first and HTML as feedback.
14:47:55 <shiestyle> ack toshiaki
14:49:35 <Hadrien> q+
14:50:03 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:50:23 <gautierchomel> toshiakikoike: in comics we have TOC, for that it is usefull to have HTML. There's also image style used with HTML.
14:52:04 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: there's a change if you have a table of content in the content, I've seen ones in SVG. I understand that manga have more appareal than webtoon. We can push something only for webtoon and explore more for manga.
14:53:19 <gautierchomel> s/in comics we/in manga we/
14:54:21 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: do we have consensus to go forward?
14:54:40 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: yes, so let's open a PR.
14:55:19 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: next call in two weeks
14:58:48 <shiestyle> s/in two weeks/in next month/
15:00:35 <shiestyle> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:00:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/22-pm-dc-minutes.html shiestyle
15:10:58 <shiestyle> zakim, end the meeting
15:10:58 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been toshiakikoike, MasakazuKitahara, LaurentLM, gautierchomel, Hadrien, Dale_Rogers
15:11:00 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:11:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/22-pm-dc-minutes.html Zakim
15:11:07 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, shiestyle; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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