12:59:33 RRSAgent has joined #matf 12:59:38 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-irc 12:59:38 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:59:39 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ 12:59:41 Zakim, this is MATF 21 May 2025 12:59:41 got it, JJ 12:59:52 Meeting: MATF 21 May 2025 12:59:53 chair+ 13:00:08 agenda+ 1.4.4 - Resize Text 13:00:14 agenda+ 2.1.1 - Keyboard 13:00:19 agenda+ 2.1.2 - No Keyboard Trap 13:01:33 Carol has joined #MATF 13:01:39 Megan_Pletzer has joined #matf 13:01:39 Tanya has joined #matf 13:01:43 pauljadam has joined #matf 13:01:46 present+ 13:01:59 present+ 13:02:03 present+ 13:02:19 GleidsonRamos has joined #matf 13:03:26 Tim has joined #matf 13:04:07 Illai has joined #matf 13:04:41 present+ 13:04:50 RobW has joined #matf 13:05:24 present+ 13:05:30 present+ 13:05:55 present+ 13:05:57 Zakim, nominate a scribe 13:05:57 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tanya 13:06:35 scribe+ Tanya 13:06:41 move to next agendum 13:06:41 agendum 1 -- 1.4.4 - Resize Text -- taken up [from JJ] 13:06:53 Karla has joined #matf 13:07:17 present+ 13:08:05 Screen Magnifier is an Assistive Technology. Text Size setting is not an AT. 13:08:21 Jamie has joined #matf 13:08:36 JJ summarizes what has been discussed last week. Definitions, system zoom, definition of AT as a key of what can be used to pass. 13:09:43 Apple considers Larger Accessibility Text Sizes as an "accessibility setting" NOT an Assistive Technology. 13:11:10 present+ 13:12:49 Do we need a note to encourage authors to enable text scaling up to the maximum possible size on the user's device? 13:12:58 JJ JJ reads normative text, available definitions and notes; points out the difference between mainstream users and users of AT. 13:12:58 q? 13:13:52 @Paul I'd say no 13:13:53 Or some note about how it's hard to know when you are at 200%? 13:14:17 q+ 13:14:22 q+ 13:14:22 q 13:14:25 q+ 13:14:43 ack pauljadam 13:14:49 +1 about the note on how hard it is to know what is 200%. Dynamic scaling make that's harder 13:15:28 I agree about the Large Content Viewer we may want to mention that also 13:15:37 pauljadam Do we need a note how its hard to know whether the text is scaled to 200% 13:15:46 ack RobW 13:16:31 ack Jamie 13:16:52 Tanya can you add ":" after the name of speaker, will look nicer in minutes :) e.g. JJ: blabla 13:17:12 RobW: you don't always get to 200%, so you would argue if it would ever pass. Users care that it works. 13:18:07 you could scale text in bars, but that would be the wrong thing to do. 13:19:21 Jamie: asks whether we need to consider and how to approach the topic of customization of the fonts 13:19:29 Pinch to zoom would only be allowed on a web view inside a native app. 13:20:06 There is also a way to make web views respect the user's text size preferences with special apple CSS. 13:21:07 Some apps will disable pinch to zoom in their web views which would be an easy fail if they're not supporting the user's text size preferences. 13:21:28 JJ: this SC was intended for web where you have zoom function and everything will scale without truncation. On iOS and Android it's working differently. Pinch-to-zoom will not be allowed on mobile. Web makes some things a lot easier. 13:21:38 q+ 13:21:43 Megan_Pletzer has joined #matf 13:22:21 Screen Magnifier would never be allowed to pass this SC. 13:22:27 ack Illai 13:22:54 https://w3c.github.io/matf/#success-criterion-1-4-4-resize-text 13:22:59 https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Understanding/resize-text.html 13:23:01 q 13:23:05 q+ 13:23:10 Zoom is not ok 13:23:20 Illai: intend of this SC is not limited to zoom or other techniek. Zoom is okey. 13:23:35 WCAG defines screen magnifier as an AT 13:23:47 +q 13:23:53 +q 13:24:07 I can't agree that a screen magnifier can be used to pass this SC 13:24:12 ack Jamie 13:24:28 JJ: we need to have a definition of AT 13:24:32 ack pauljadam 13:24:57 pauljadam the reference is to the user agent Zoom (control +, or command +)] 13:25:00 q+ 13:25:16 pauljadam: resize text is accessibility technology. Developes can ignore this all and not nothing at all 13:26:10 JJ: display scaling can be a way to pass. I feel like magnifier is an AT 13:26:12 ack Jamie 13:27:41 Jamie: question of accessibility vs usability 13:27:43 I don't think the iOS Display & Brightness > Display Zoom setting would be considered an Assistive Technology either. 13:28:03 Agreed with PJA 13:28:12 ack Tanya 13:28:38 @Tanya specifically "loss of content or functionality" identifying accessibility / 1.4.4 failure vs non-WCAG UX design 13:29:01 Yes agree that the user's text size preferences should be respected! 13:29:03 Tanya: do we agree as group that user preferences should be respected? 13:29:44 user preference = OS settings, not specific % 13:30:12 That's what the user's expect. All sizes should work. 13:30:34 q+ 13:32:13 JJ: Apple will introduce a11y nutrition labels, where developers can document a11y features that the app supports. For auditors it means that they can test mentioned a11y features 13:32:22 ack Jamie 13:32:24 We may need a note about authors putting in the effort to have good readability and layout at the maximum text sizes, like if there is only 1 or 2 letters and lots of text hyphenation - showing then it's not very readable and they need to reflow better, e.g., reflow into 1 column rather than 2 columns. So you can pass WCAG with very hard to read 13:32:24 large size text as long as it's not truncated but there should be an effort to make it visually easy to read at max text sizes. 13:32:35 Jamie: Upcoming apple features: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/05/apple-unveils-powerful-accessibility-features-coming-later-this-year/ 13:32:42 Jamie: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/05/apple-unveils-powerful-accessibility-features-coming-later-this-year/ 13:33:37 Low Vision TF: https://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/requirements.html#text-size 13:34:28 ACTION: Define "assistive technology" 13:34:59 Jamie: in mobile context we can considered a minimum size, which can be AAA requirement to introduce. Also, some text will not be able to reach 200% due to limitations due to the smaller viewport of the mobile screen 13:35:06 ACTION: Define "loss of content or functionality" 13:35:26 ACTION: Note or section about user preferences, including go beyond WCAG requirements? 13:35:53 ACTION: Add note about non-linear scaling (applies on Android and iOS) 13:36:18 ACTION: Provide guidance about determining the text size in percentages 13:37:19 ACTION: Mention large content viewer and other alternatives when content is limited to certain bounds 13:42:45 regrets+ JoeHumbert 13:42:51 regrets+ JonGibbins 13:42:59 regrets+ Julian 13:45:51 can we vote today on keeping or not keeping WCAG2ICT notes? 13:48:09 Poll: Does 1.4.4 apply directly as written, given that assistive technology is clearly defined? 13:48:26 pauljadam has joined #matf 13:49:01 0 13:49:04 0 13:49:05 0 13:49:05 +1 applies as written and assistive technology are defined clearly to include screen magnifiers 13:49:10 Can you share a link for the wcag2ict guidance? 13:49:13 0 13:49:15 0 13:49:18 +1 13:49:29 WCAG2ICT guidance: https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict-22/#applying-sc-1-4-4-resize-text-to-non-web-documents-and-software 13:49:53 I agree to the statement that assistive technology are defined clearly to include screen magnifiers 13:50:24 +1 13:51:54 JJ: WCAG2ICT made a change to the definition of AT, but the normative text is applied as written. But in fact it changes the normative text, because the definition is different 13:52:06 Poll: Do we want to include Note 1 of WCAG2ICT as written? 13:52:07 The Intent section refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200% without needing to use assistive technologies. This means that the application provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) without loss of content or functionality, or that the application works with the platform 13:52:07 accessibility features to meet this success criterion. 13:52:42 +1 13:53:01 +1 13:53:03 +1 13:53:11 +1 13:53:11 +1 13:53:11 -1 because the text "(zoom or otherwise)" is vague and confusing 13:53:34 -1 for the same reason as pauljadam mentioned 13:53:40 "actually +1 with modification "up to 200%" 13:53:40 +1 (but I do have a minor issue as above) 13:54:24 take out the "at least" 13:55:37 Poll: Do we want to include Note 2 of WCAG2ICT as written? 13:55:37 For non-web software, there may be cases where the platform does not scale all text up to 200%. In such cases, authors are encouraged to meet user needs by scaling text to the extent supported by user settings in the platform. 13:55:53 -1 does not seem necessary, I'd rather a note about supporting maximum text sizes 13:56:03 +1 13:56:05 +1 13:56:17 +1 13:56:18 +1 13:56:26 Or maybe this note needs to talk about large content viewer 13:56:52 0; some note about scaling is needed, with definition of non-linear scaling up to 200%. Not necessarily larger than 200% for this SC 13:56:59 +1 13:58:01 Summary of poll results for Success Criterion 1.4.4 guidance: 13:58:02 Poll: Does 1.4.4 apply directly as written, given that assistive technology is clearly defined? 13:58:02 Results: 2x +1 and 5x 0 due to definition clarification 13:58:02 Poll: Do we want to include Note 1 of WCAG2ICT as written? 13:58:03 Results: 6x +1 and 2x -1 for mentioning "zoom" 13:58:03 Poll: Do we want to include Note 2 of WCAG2ICT as written? 13:58:03 Results: 5x +1, 1x 0 and 1x -1 for limited scope 13:59:49 JJ: summarized the poll results incl consideration 14:00:36 rrsagent, make minutes 14:00:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-minutes.html JJ 14:01:12 rrsagent, bye 14:01:12 I see 6 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-actions.rdf : 14:01:12 ACTION: Define "assistive technology" [1] 14:01:12 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-irc#T13-34-28 14:01:12 ACTION: Define "loss of content or functionality" [2] 14:01:12 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-irc#T13-35-06 14:01:12 ACTION: Note or section about user preferences, including go beyond WCAG requirements? [3] 14:01:12 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-irc#T13-35-26 14:01:12 ACTION: Add note about non-linear scaling (applies on Android and iOS) [4] 14:01:12 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-irc#T13-35-53 14:01:12 ACTION: Provide guidance about determining the text size in percentages [5] 14:01:12 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-irc#T13-36-18 14:01:12 ACTION: Mention large content viewer and other alternatives when content is limited to certain bounds [6] 14:01:12 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-irc#T13-37-19 14:01:17 zakim, bye 14:01:17 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Megan_Pletzer, pauljadam, Carol, Illai, Tanya, GleidsonRamos, RobW, Karla, Jamie 14:01:17 Zakim has left #matf 14:01:27 Illai has left #matf