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12:59:38 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-irc
12:59:38 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:59:39 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:59:41 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 21 May 2025
12:59:41 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:59:52 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 21 May 2025
12:59:53 <JJ> chair+
13:00:08 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.4 - Resize Text
13:00:14 <JJ> agenda+ 2.1.1 - Keyboard
13:00:19 <JJ> agenda+ 2.1.2 - No Keyboard Trap
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13:01:46 <Megan_Pletzer> present+
13:01:59 <pauljadam> present+
13:02:03 <Carol> present+
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13:04:41 <Illai> present+
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13:05:24 <Tanya> present+
13:05:30 <GleidsonRamos> present+
13:05:55 <RobW> present+
13:05:57 <JJ> Zakim, nominate a scribe
13:05:57 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tanya
13:06:35 <JJ> scribe+ Tanya
13:06:41 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:06:41 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- 1.4.4 - Resize Text -- taken up [from JJ]
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13:07:17 <Karla> present+
13:08:05 <pauljadam> Screen Magnifier is an Assistive Technology. Text Size setting is not an AT.
13:08:21 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:08:36 <Tanya> JJ summarizes what has been discussed last week. Definitions, system zoom, definition of AT as a key of what can be used to pass.
13:09:43 <pauljadam> Apple considers Larger Accessibility Text Sizes as an "accessibility setting" NOT an Assistive Technology.
13:11:10 <Jamie> present+
13:12:49 <pauljadam> Do we need a note to encourage authors to enable text scaling up to the maximum possible size on the user's device?
13:12:58 <Tanya> JJ JJ reads normative text, available definitions and notes; points out the difference between mainstream users and users of AT.
13:12:58 <JJ> q?
13:13:52 <Jamie> @Paul I'd say no
13:13:53 <pauljadam> Or some note about how it's hard to know when you are at 200%?
13:14:17 <pauljadam> q+
13:14:22 <RobW> q+
13:14:22 <Jamie> q
13:14:25 <Jamie> q+
13:14:43 <JJ> ack pauljadam
13:14:49 <GleidsonRamos> +1 about the note on how hard it is to know what is 200%. Dynamic scaling make that's harder
13:15:28 <pauljadam> I agree about the Large Content Viewer we may want to mention that also
13:15:37 <Tanya> pauljadam Do we need a note how its hard to know whether the text is scaled to 200%
13:15:46 <JJ> ack RobW
13:16:31 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:16:52 <JJ> Tanya can you add ":" after the name of speaker, will look nicer in minutes :) e.g. JJ: blabla
13:17:12 <Tanya> RobW: you don't always get to 200%, so you would argue if it would ever pass. Users care that it works.
13:18:07 <RobW> you could scale text in bars, but that would be the wrong thing to do.
13:19:21 <Tanya> Jamie: asks whether we need to consider and how to approach the topic of customization of the fonts
13:19:29 <pauljadam> Pinch to zoom would only be allowed on a web view inside a native app.
13:20:06 <pauljadam> There is also a way to make web views respect the user's text size preferences with special apple CSS.
13:21:07 <pauljadam> Some apps will disable pinch to zoom in their web views which would be an easy fail if they're not supporting the user's text size preferences.
13:21:28 <Tanya> JJ: this SC was intended for web where you have zoom function and everything will scale without truncation. On iOS and Android it's working differently. Pinch-to-zoom will not be allowed on mobile. Web makes some things a lot easier.
13:21:38 <Illai> q+
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13:22:21 <pauljadam> Screen Magnifier would never be allowed to pass this SC.
13:22:27 <JJ> ack Illai
13:22:54 <JJ> https://w3c.github.io/matf/#success-criterion-1-4-4-resize-text
13:22:59 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Understanding/resize-text.html
13:23:01 <Jamie> q
13:23:05 <Jamie> q+
13:23:10 <pauljadam> Zoom is not ok
13:23:20 <Tanya> Illai: intend of this SC is not limited to zoom or other techniek. Zoom is okey.
13:23:35 <pauljadam> WCAG defines screen magnifier as an AT
13:23:47 <pauljadam> +q
13:23:53 <Tanya> +q
13:24:07 <RobW> I can't agree that a screen magnifier can be used to pass this SC
13:24:12 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:24:28 <Tanya> JJ: we need to have a definition of AT
13:24:32 <JJ> ack pauljadam
13:24:57 <Illai> pauljadam the reference is to the user agent Zoom (control +, or command +)]
13:25:00 <Jamie> q+
13:25:16 <Tanya> pauljadam: resize text is accessibility technology. Developes can ignore this all and not nothing at all
13:26:10 <Tanya> JJ: display scaling can be a way to pass. I feel like magnifier is an AT
13:26:12 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:27:41 <Tanya> Jamie: question of accessibility vs usability
13:27:43 <pauljadam> I don't think the iOS Display & Brightness > Display Zoom setting would be considered an Assistive Technology either.
13:28:03 <RobW> Agreed with PJA
13:28:12 <JJ> ack Tanya
13:28:38 <Jamie> @Tanya specifically "loss of content or functionality" identifying accessibility / 1.4.4 failure vs non-WCAG UX design
13:29:01 <pauljadam> Yes agree that the user's text size preferences should be respected!
13:29:03 <JJ> Tanya: do we agree as group that user preferences should be respected?
13:29:44 <Jamie> user preference = OS settings, not specific %
13:30:12 <pauljadam> That's what the user's expect. All sizes should work.
13:30:34 <Jamie> q+
13:32:13 <Tanya> JJ: Apple will introduce a11y nutrition labels, where developers can document a11y features that the app supports. For auditors it means that they can test mentioned a11y features
13:32:22 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:32:24 <pauljadam> We may need a note about authors putting in the effort to have good readability and layout at the maximum text sizes, like if there is only 1 or 2 letters and lots of text hyphenation - showing then it's not very readable and they need to reflow better, e.g., reflow into 1 column rather than 2 columns. So you can pass WCAG with very hard to read
13:32:24 <pauljadam> large size text as long as it's not truncated but there should be an effort to make it visually easy to read at max text sizes.
13:32:35 <JJ> Jamie: Upcoming apple features: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/05/apple-unveils-powerful-accessibility-features-coming-later-this-year/
13:32:42 <Tanya> Jamie: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/05/apple-unveils-powerful-accessibility-features-coming-later-this-year/
13:33:37 <JJ> Low Vision TF: https://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/requirements.html#text-size
13:34:28 <JJ> ACTION: Define "assistive technology"
13:34:59 <Tanya> Jamie: in mobile context we can considered a minimum size, which can be AAA requirement to introduce. Also, some text will not be able to reach 200% due to limitations due to the smaller viewport of the mobile screen
13:35:06 <JJ> ACTION: Define "loss of content or functionality"
13:35:26 <JJ> ACTION: Note or section about user preferences, including go beyond WCAG requirements?
13:35:53 <JJ> ACTION: Add note about non-linear scaling (applies on Android and iOS)
13:36:18 <JJ> ACTION: Provide guidance about determining the text size in percentages
13:37:19 <JJ> ACTION: Mention large content viewer and other alternatives when content is limited to certain bounds
13:42:45 <JJ> regrets+ JoeHumbert
13:42:51 <JJ> regrets+ JonGibbins
13:42:59 <JJ> regrets+ Julian
13:45:51 <Jamie> can we  vote today on keeping or not keeping WCAG2ICT notes?
13:48:09 <JJ> Poll: Does 1.4.4 apply directly as written, given that assistive technology is clearly defined?
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13:49:01 <Jamie> 0
13:49:04 <Tim> 0
13:49:05 <Tanya> 0
13:49:05 <pauljadam> +1 applies as written and assistive technology are defined clearly to include screen magnifiers
13:49:10 <RobW> Can you share a link for the wcag2ict guidance?
13:49:13 <GleidsonRamos> 0
13:49:15 <Karla> 0
13:49:18 <Illai> +1
13:49:29 <JJ> WCAG2ICT guidance: https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict-22/#applying-sc-1-4-4-resize-text-to-non-web-documents-and-software
13:49:53 <Tim> I agree to the statement that assistive technology are defined clearly to include screen magnifiers
13:50:24 <RobW> +1
13:51:54 <Tanya> JJ: WCAG2ICT made a change to the definition of AT, but the normative text is applied as written. But in fact it changes the normative text, because the definition is different
13:52:06 <JJ> Poll: Do we want to include Note 1 of WCAG2ICT as written?
13:52:07 <JJ> The Intent section refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200% without needing to use assistive technologies. This means that the application provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) without loss of content or functionality, or that the application works with the platform
13:52:07 <JJ> accessibility features to meet this success criterion.
13:52:42 <Jamie> +1
13:53:01 <Illai> +1
13:53:03 <Tim> +1
13:53:11 <GleidsonRamos> +1
13:53:11 <Karla> +1
13:53:11 <pauljadam> -1 because the text "(zoom or otherwise)" is vague and confusing
13:53:34 <Tanya> -1 for the same reason as pauljadam mentioned
13:53:40 <Jamie> "actually +1 with modification "up to 200%"
13:53:40 <RobW> +1 (but I do have a minor issue as above)
13:54:24 <Jamie> take out the "at least"
13:55:37 <JJ> Poll: Do we want to include Note 2 of WCAG2ICT as written?
13:55:37 <JJ> For non-web software, there may be cases where the platform does not scale all text up to 200%. In such cases, authors are encouraged to meet user needs by scaling text to the extent supported by user settings in the platform.
13:55:53 <pauljadam> -1 does not seem necessary, I'd rather a note about supporting maximum text sizes
13:56:03 <RobW> +1
13:56:05 <Tanya> +1
13:56:17 <Tim> +1
13:56:18 <Karla> +1
13:56:26 <pauljadam> Or maybe this note needs to talk about large content viewer
13:56:52 <Jamie> 0; some note about scaling is needed, with definition of non-linear scaling up to 200%. Not necessarily larger than 200% for this SC
13:56:59 <Illai> +1
13:58:01 <JJ> Summary of poll results for Success Criterion 1.4.4 guidance:
13:58:02 <JJ> Poll: Does 1.4.4 apply directly as written, given that assistive technology is clearly defined?
13:58:02 <JJ> Results: 2x +1 and 5x 0 due to definition clarification
13:58:02 <JJ> Poll: Do we want to include Note 1 of WCAG2ICT as written?
13:58:03 <JJ> Results: 6x +1 and 2x -1 for mentioning "zoom"
13:58:03 <JJ> Poll: Do we want to include Note 2 of WCAG2ICT as written?
13:58:03 <JJ> Results: 5x +1, 1x 0 and 1x -1 for limited scope
13:59:49 <Tanya> JJ: summarized the poll results incl consideration
14:00:36 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:00:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:01:12 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
14:01:12 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-actions.rdf :
14:01:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Define "assistive technology" [1]
14:01:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-irc#T13-34-28
14:01:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Define "loss of content or functionality" [2]
14:01:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-irc#T13-35-06
14:01:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Note or section about user preferences, including go beyond WCAG requirements? [3]
14:01:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-irc#T13-35-26
14:01:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Add note about non-linear scaling (applies on Android and iOS) [4]
14:01:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-irc#T13-35-53
14:01:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Provide guidance about determining the text size in percentages [5]
14:01:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-irc#T13-36-18
14:01:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mention large content viewer and other alternatives when content is limited to certain bounds [6]
14:01:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/21-matf-irc#T13-37-19
14:01:17 <JJ> zakim, bye
14:01:17 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Megan_Pletzer, pauljadam, Carol, Illai, Tanya, GleidsonRamos, RobW, Karla, Jamie
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