18:05:31 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:05:36 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/05/20-aria-apg-irc 18:05:36 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:05:37 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:05:46 present+ jugglinmike 18:05:50 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:05:55 present+ jongund 18:05:57 present+ arigilmore 18:06:00 present+ Adam_Page 18:06:02 present+ howard-e 18:06:45 Matt_King has joined #aria-apg 18:06:48 present+ Matt_King 18:07:00 Topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:07:03 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/May-20%2C-2025-Agenda 18:07:41 Matt_King: I'm canceling the meeting for next Tuesday (the day after Memorial Day in the US) 18:07:51 Matt_King: Next meeting: June 3 18:08:30 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:09:02 Matt_King: Any requests for change to agenda? 18:09:07 present+ CurtBellew 18:09:18 Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with the agenda as scheduled 18:09:22 Topic: Publication planning 18:09:39 Matt_King: Even though we're not meeting next week, I'm hoping we can still go forward with the publication 18:09:50 Matt_King: Right now, there is only one thing showing as totally ready for publication 18:10:04 Matt_King: I'm hoping we can bump that up to two by the end of the meeting and then up to three by the end of this week 18:10:33 Matt_King: I know I won't be working as much this week because I will be off traveling 18:11:59 Matt_King: I think Daniel said that Thursday of next week will be okay for the W3C 18:12:07 howard-e: That works for me 18:12:33 Matt_King: I don't think we should bother if we don't get more things landed, but it seems unlikely that we won't 18:12:42 Topic: PR 3249 - Add HTML search to landmark practice 18:12:48 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3249 18:13:02 Matt_King: jongund pushed a whole bunch of commits to resolve a lint error 18:13:38 Matt_King: The changes to the VNU file look correct to me, but they don't appear to be having any effect 18:13:45 jongund: I don't understand, either 18:14:55 howard-e: I replied to the thread. jongund did everything right. There is a message toward the end, though, that says "suppressing further errors from this subtree". That implies that there are additional errors which are not reflected. I'm suggesting that you add a "wildcard" pattern to address those 18:15:16 howard-e: I reviewed the linter's documentation, but I can't find a way to surface those suppressed errors 18:16:32 Matt_King: It's important to get it to work because as soon as we merge, we don't want the main branch or the other pull requests to begin reporting this error 18:17:07 jongund: I'll give it a try! 18:17:10 topic: PR 3258 - Fix slider to remove redundant announcement of value by screen readers 18:17:27 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3258 18:17:52 Matt_King: For the link checker fix, it looked like it was reviewed and approved, but I didn't merge it. 18:17:57 howard-e: I merged it this morning 18:18:07 Matt_King: It sounded like maybe that solution is a little brittle 18:18:10 howard-e: Yes 18:18:20 Matt_King: I still don't understand why the user-agent matters 18:18:57 howard-e: Some websites reject traffic from browsers that present themselves as a certain version--often due to compatibility concerns 18:20:08 Matt_King: If we re-run these tests, should it pass, now? 18:20:46 howard-e: Yes, it should 18:21:00 Matt_King: I tested this with two screen readers 18:21:09 howard-e: We need to merge from the "main" branch, first 18:21:13 Matt_King: Oh, yes! I will do that 18:22:00 Siri has joined #aria-apg 18:22:16 topic: PR 3251 - New expandable region pattern 18:22:22 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3251 18:22:31 Matt_King: This is Adam_Page's awesome pull request 18:22:39 Matt_King: Before Adam_Page left, we were discussing where to place this example 18:22:53 Adam_Page: Yes. As I recall, we decided to move it into the existing "disclosure" pattern 18:23:16 Adam_Page: I made that change. It is now a "disclosure" example. I updated the "patterns" page to link to it 18:24:25 Matt_King: Do we have an open issue related to our pinning of the version of the linter? 18:24:34 Matt_King: We had something pinned, if I recall correctly 18:25:37 howard-e: We do not have an issue, but I created a pull request two weeks ago 18:26:16 Matt_King: So you have a pull request to un-pin it. I wonder if we should land that before Adam_Page makes any more changes to the linting specific to his pull request 18:26:49 howard-e: It's pull request 3262 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3262 18:27:04 Matt_King: That says "all checks have passed" right now on this one 18:28:09 Matt_King: With this new validator--are the old exceptions still needed? 18:28:19 howard-e: I didn't confirm, but I can do so pretty quickly 18:29:09 Matt_King: You can decide and go ahead and merge this as appropriate 18:29:23 Matt_King: And then after this one is merged, Adam_Page, let's see if your errors still pop up 18:29:26 Adam_Page: Sounds great! 18:29:29 howard-e: thank you! 18:33:07 Adam_Page: I'll stay tuned 18:33:29 Adam_Page: Ill also check in on NVDA 18:33:37 s/Ill/I'll/ 18:34:03 Matt_King: Maybe we should finish the documentation before we seek additional feedback 18:34:55 Adam_Page: For what it's worth, before I pushed up my initial Pull request months ago, I chatted with Scott, and he endorsed my work 18:35:46 Matt_King: So you called it "disclosure card"? 18:35:59 Adam_Page: Yeah, I did, but it's not a strong opinion 18:36:57 Matt_King: Do you think that we should give it an alternative name in parenthesis, as we do in other places? E.g.. "(expandable region)" 18:37:38 Adam_Page: Maybe, "Disclosure (show card)" ? 18:37:45 Disclosure (Show/Hide) Card 18:37:52 Matt_King: I'm looking at the list of disclosure examples on the patterns page 18:38:37 Matt_King: In these, the HTML element that is the region--what is the element? Is it a "div" with the "role" region? 18:38:58 Adam_Page: The HTML element I'm using is "section" and I give it an accname with aria-labeledby 18:39:19 Adam_Page: That wasn't a strong opinion, either. I just did that because this was an expandable region from the get-go 18:39:41 Adam_Page: I may have complicated this because I chose to make multiple cards and to place them in a semantic ordered list 18:39:59 Adam_Page: That seems like a valid use-case, but it may be a distraction for this example 18:40:30 Matt_King: I guess that if we thought it was really important to show it as a collection of cards, then maybe. But maybe it would be better as an individual 18:41:13 Adam_Page: Yeah. And cards are often presented as a collection. That's why they're cards. From that perspective, it does feel appropriate to present them as a collection. And if it is a collection, it seems appropriate to present it as a semantic list 18:41:58 Matt_King: We have two levels of lists here 18:42:12 Adam_Page: That's because the fiction of the example is a conference with talks spanning multiple days 18:43:00 Adam_Page: The content is silly--it's tongue-in-cheek that I added hastily. I will swap in more straightforward content 18:43:54 Matt_King: From the perspective of testing in the ARIA-AT context, it would be good to bring it down to a single list. That would simplify the semantics 18:44:13 Adam_Page: And I don't think it would limit the example's utility in the APG. I can make that simplification 18:44:39 Matt_King: This is unlike accordion where you normally have one region exposed. If someone took this and ran with it, they could end up with many regions exposed. 18:45:13 Matt_King: I think "article" would be a better use. Articles are great for regions--they don't clutter the navigation 18:45:43 Topic: Issue 3269 - Request to change FAQ disclosure list semantics 18:45:51 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3269 18:46:11 Matt_King: In the "disclosure" FAQ, the current markup includes a definition list with a dt for each question and a dd for each answer 18:46:26 Matt_King: This has a bunch of side-effects that we discussed in the ARIA-AT Community Group 18:46:49 Matt_King: The first is that we didn't know what to do with the semantics of the description list 18:46:57 Matt_King: No screen readers handle these semantics really, at all 18:47:20 Matt_King: So the description list semantics are kind of complicated from a screen reader's point of view 18:47:36 Matt_King: That's what caused us to ask if these are the best semantics to recommend for an FAQ 18:48:05 Matt_King: The first thing that screen readers get wrong is making it clear how many items are in the definition list. The second thing they get wrong is making the list navigable 18:48:27 Matt_King: We didn't see any value in having these in a dd and dt versus just a button and a paragraph 18:48:42 Matt_King: So that's a summary of the discussion that took place in the ARIA-AT community group 18:48:55 Matt_King: So this is a request that we change the semantics of the example 18:49:16 jongund: I can do that if you want 18:49:19 Matt_King: Awesome! 18:49:34 Matt_King: Does anyone here have any thoughts on this semantic change? Are there any objections? 18:49:37 present+ Siri 18:49:55 Siri: Why can't we go with what we have? 18:50:07 Matt_King: We're changing the semantics to NOT use the description list 18:50:09 Siri: Ah, I see 18:50:29 jongund: It sounds like we should be telling people to avoid using description lists. If there's problems with using them in general... 18:50:36 Matt_King: Well, personally, I find them problematic 18:50:44 Matt_King: The whole group in ARIA-AT finds them problematic 18:50:50 Matt_King: Those problems probably should be solved 18:51:02 Matt_King: But literally no one in the group could think of what they would like the solution to be 18:51:25 Matt_King: Other than general agreement that the definition list should work more like a table than a list. With a dl column and a dt column 18:51:52 Matt_King: From a screen reader user's point of view, there's this idea that tables are way better than description lists, and that tables ought to be preferred 18:52:00 Matt_King: I don't know where and how to get that across 18:52:20 jongund: For the immediate future, it sounds like definition lists should be avoided. Especially because they've been around for 25 years 18:52:30 Siri: My thought's exactly 18:52:59 Matt_King: The real deal is that they aren't used very much, so no one really cares very much 18:53:16 Adam_Page: It breaks my heart to know that it has never had a great accessibility user experience because the semantics are so strong 18:54:33 Matt_King: I think it could be made to work if screen readers were convinced to care 18:54:47 Matt_King: We've pushed that way out on the ARIA-AT timeline. We have more important semantics to get to, first 18:54:56 Matt_King: Anyway, I'll assign this to jongund 18:55:17 Siri: When we change it, can we include a note about our motivation so that people know? 18:55:55 Matt_King: We can definitely include an explanation in the change log. I'm cautious about including such text in the APG itself. I wouldn't want to upset the Adam_Page's of the world by saying something not positive about DL 18:57:02 Topic: Pull request 3213 - Update skipTo 18:57:09 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3213 18:57:16 Matt_King: I added some comments to the pull request 18:58:02 Matt_King: Before we dive in: in general, jongund made changes to the menu that is included at the top of each page 18:58:38 Matt_King: This skipTo includes both landmark regions and headings, but only headings in the main content. I didn't realize that until yesterday. I'm wondering where that decision came from--that we would exclude headings from any other part of the page 18:58:57 jongund: That is configurable in skipTo. We can reconfigure it to show all headings 18:59:31 jongund: There's now browser extension versions of skipTo where users have access to a lot of configuration 19:00:37 Matt_King: That configuration appears on every single page--we don't have it centrally. 19:01:18 jongund: I could change the default to be all headings 19:04:32 Zakim, end the meeting 19:04:32 As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, jongund, arigilmore, Adam_Page, howard-e, Matt_King, CurtBellew, Siri 19:04:35 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 19:04:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/20-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 19:04:44 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:04:44 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:04:48 RRSAgent, leave 19:04:48 I see no action items