13:52:15 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 13:52:20 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/05/15-i18n-irc 13:52:21 Zakim has joined #i18n 13:52:30 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 13:52:35 Chair: Addison Phillips 13:52:43 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/b7edae68-f52c-4aab-a1a6-3c37459e0786/20250515T150000/ 13:52:43 clear agenda 13:52:43 agenda+ Agenda Review 13:52:43 agenda+ Action Items 13:52:45 agenda+ Info Share 13:52:47 agenda+ Review RADAR 13:52:49 agenda+ Pending Issue Review 13:52:52 agenda+ Discuss Limiting Access to Local Fonts proposal 13:52:54 agenda+ ARIA key-shortcuts 13:52:57 agenda+ TPAC Planning 13:52:59 agenda+ Specdev "isomorphic string" PR 13:53:01 agenda+ AOB? 13:53:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/15-i18n-minutes.html addison 13:59:01 JcK has joined #i18n 14:00:40 present+ Addison, Fantasai, JcK 14:01:17 present+ Zainab, Fuqiao 14:01:36 present+ Atsushi 14:02:03 present+ Richard 14:04:35 agenda? 14:04:45 zakim, take up agendum 1 14:04:45 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:04:48 scribe: xfq 14:05:01 agenda+ WebNN 14:05:28 zakim, take up agendum 2 14:05:28 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:05:36 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues 14:05:52 #169 14:05:53 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/169 -> Action 169 reply to html 10843 and css 9832 (on aphillips) due 2025-05-08 14:06:04 #168 14:06:04 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/168 -> Action 168 add instructions on dark mode to i18n-editors (on xfq) due 2025-05-01 14:06:15 #165 14:06:16 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/165 -> Action 165 add a conformance section to suppress the respec warning to specdev (on aphillips) due 2025-04-10 14:06:41 #162 14:06:41 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/162 -> Action 162 poll I18N/CSS for new day/time (on aphillips) due 2025-03-25 14:06:56 #157 14:06:56 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/157 -> Action 157 write glossary proposal identifying options and next steps for those options (on aphillips) due 2025-02-20 14:07:15 #136 14:07:15 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/136 -> Issue 136 follow up on XML errata (by aphillips) [task] 14:07:37 addison: xml-editor list has been revived 14:07:45 ... now you can send errata about the xml spec 14:07:48 #135 14:07:49 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/135 -> Action 135 follow up on XR issue 1393 about locale in session (on aphillips) due 2024-10-17 14:07:56 #127 14:07:57 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/127 -> Action 127 make a list of shared topics of interest between TG2 and W3C-I18N (on aphillips) due 2024-09-30 14:07:58 #33 14:07:59 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips) 14:08:13 #7 14:08:14 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023 14:08:27 #4 14:08:27 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on aphillips) due 27 Jul 2023 14:08:36 rrsagent, make minutes 14:08:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/15-i18n-minutes.html xfq 14:08:43 zakim, take up agendum 3 14:08:43 agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:09:50 Zainab: my name is Zainab Rizvi 14:09:55 ... I work at Google on Chrome 14:10:04 ... I work on a team that looks at anti-tracking 14:10:16 ... anti-fingerprinting measures, detection, and possible interventions 14:10:34 q+ 14:10:42 ack next 14:11:05 ... a lot of the interventions we think about don't necessarily think about i18n because the goal is to have uniformity 14:11:32 r12a: Unicode 17 beta will start on 20th 14:11:41 ... I've already updated Uniview 14:11:48 ... but haven't released it yet 14:11:50 https://r12a.github.io/scripts/index.html#scriptnotes 14:12:01 ... because there might be last minute changes to the data 14:12:14 ... I've been going through my orthographic notes 14:12:22 ... and updating them significantly 14:12:51 zakim, take up agendum 4 14:12:52 agendum 4 -- Review RADAR -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:13:05 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1 14:13:28 addison: we have no new incoming requests this week 14:13:43 ... we got an early review request for DID 14:13:52 zakim, take up agendum 5 14:13:53 agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:14:01 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending 14:14:21 agenda? 14:14:41 zakim, take up agendum 8 14:14:41 agendum 8 -- TPAC Planning -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:15:32 action: addison: reserve two days worth of meetings at tpac 14:15:39 Created -> action #170 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/170 14:15:42 zakim, take up agendum 6 14:15:42 agendum 6 -- Discuss Limiting Access to Local Fonts proposal -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:15:46 addison: does anybody have any specific preferences for tpac? 14:16:03 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2025May/0000.html 14:16:08 https://github.com/explainers-by-googlers/limiting-local-fonts-access 14:16:37 Zainab: Limiting Access to Local Fonts is an early proposal by our team 14:16:54 ... we're looking for specific feedback from this group before we incubate it further 14:17:07 ... the motivation is to combat font-based fingerprinting 14:17:17 (our comment: https://github.com/explainers-by-googlers/limiting-local-fonts-access/issues/3) 14:17:18 https://github.com/explainers-by-googlers/limiting-local-fonts-access/issues/3 -> Issue 3 W3C I18N WG comments (by aphillips) 14:17:27 ... specifically looking at canvas measure text but as we all know that's not the only way 14:17:46 ... there's also like CSS font-family that's used to uniquely identify users across the web 14:18:01 ... very simply the proposal is to have a list-based approach 14:18:09 ... specifically for Windows and Mac 14:18:31 ... and then use those lists as source of truth when determining whether a font is considered user installed 14:18:43 ... towards Safari already does 14:19:23 ... the reason why we're just considering Mac and Windows right now is because Linux distributions are varied and we don't think a list-based approach will be sustainable 14:19:32 ... feedback is welcome 14:19:41 q+ 14:19:46 ack next 14:20:02 ... the first thing I wanted to talk about are use cases that cannot be covered by web fonts or the local fonts access API 14:20:52 r12a: I feel very poorly prepared and unfortunately I've written about these things in so many different places and so many different threads that I'm not sure I could immediately find 14:20:59 ... the list of things I want to mention 14:21:05 ... but let me start with a couple of things 14:21:41 ... first, I no longer use Safari because of my work with scripts from around. the world Safari is no use to me anymore 14:21:50 ... I hope that Chrome does not go the same way 14:22:01 ... the system fonts are often way out of date 14:22:07 ... even Google Noto fonts 14:22:14 ... there are things like the Urdu font 14:22:31 ... which has had significant changes recently to support Urdu and Kashmiri and so on 14:22:47 ... and Mac prevents you using the latest version of the font even if you download it 14:22:53 ... it's a pain in the neck 14:24:00 ... I'm not sure I've covered all of them, I need to find that list that I did before but those are issues around the idea that system fonts are not enough 14:24:49 ... the idea of using web fonts is not all the time great because Chinese fonts is too big 14:25:01 ... some page contains a lot of languages 14:25:21 q+ 14:25:24 ... needs lots of bandwidth by having to have every font downloaded 14:26:33 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4055 has some example issues 14:26:34 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4055 -> Issue 4055 [css-fonts] incorporate mitigations for font based fingerprinting (by pes10k) [css-fonts-4] [i18n-tracker] [Needs Design / Proposal] [privacy-tracker] 14:27:33 r12a: people who are researching stuff like Egyptian hieroglyphs and stuff like that they want to be able to switch between fonts to understand whether they support things correctly and so on 14:27:53 ... without any penalties or having to create web fonts before being able to do anything 14:28:03 ... and they're doing that locally on their own system 14:28:14 ... from my point of view they should be immune 14:28:24 addison: let's pause here for a second 14:28:44 ... this has been a long discussion in a lot of places 14:29:14 Zainab: I have a few different thoughts 14:29:21 ... thank you for the feedback, r12a 14:29:26 ... extremely useful 14:29:57 ... I'm a native Urdu speaker, I can read Kashmiri and I also find Safari unusable, so I definitely relate in that front 14:30:13 ... you're right that we would be disadvantaging folks 14:30:30 ... I've been thinking of a few ways we could mitigate some of these concerns 14:30:42 ... I have a few very early ideas 14:30:53 ... the localhost one is very obvious 14:31:05 ... we should not have interventions in place at localhost 14:31:11 ... I think that's agreed upon 14:31:17 q+ 14:31:20 ... there's not thread model for privacy 14:31:29 ack r12a 14:31:34 q- 14:31:44 ... the other thing is opt-in mode of some sort and maybe starting with Chrome's incognito mode 14:32:01 ... which has less users than regular browsingt 14:32:36 ... also somewhere we're trying out like new privacy features, when a user has opted into a higer privacy mode 14:32:50 ... and that can be perceived as an active choice being made by users 14:32:54 ... that's one option 14:33:17 ... the other option would be to have an explicit toggle that would apply to the entire browsing sessions 14:33:23 ... but they would need to opt into it 14:33:35 ... and then we can talk about how this would work for enterprise users 14:34:11 r12a: so if you don't do that , you can continue as we currently go on at the moment right? 14:34:32 ... then you've got the question of educating people to say if you do want to fly under the radar then use this mode 14:34:40 ... that sounds like an interesting way 14:35:06 ... the "more than x fonts" thing I'd break that barrier pretty quickly 14:36:02 ... I wrote one of the Unicode tehnical notes on Indic scripts and how they work, I'm using example for all of those scripts, so I'm probably going to hit 10 or more 14:36:08 ... in a single article of that kind 14:36:21 Zainab: a quick response 14:37:07 ... when you're talking about building web pages that use like more than whatever the limit might be would you be open to then requesting permission through the local font access API explicitly 14:37:17 ... then you can do as many as you want, there is no limit 14:37:26 ... it's an existing API 14:37:48 action: zainab: revise local-font-access to exclude localhost and talk more about opt-in model 14:37:49 Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe zainab is not a valid user for w3c/i18n-actions? 14:37:53 ... it's saved in their preferences 14:38:17 r12a: yes I think that's what I had suggested previously 14:38:19 action: addison: remind zainab: revise local-font-access to exclude localhost and talk more about opt-in model 14:38:20 Created -> action #171 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/171 14:39:28 agenda? 14:39:45 Zainab: I have one question 14:40:04 ... I don't know if folks are familiar with the Windows features on demand 14:40:12 ... which are the extrea things that you can install 14:40:16 ... based on your region 14:40:39 ... we were exploring to have sublists based on different countries and locals 14:40:57 ... but we don't want to be in the business of maintaining 100 different lists 14:41:07 ... but if it's a useful thing we're open to it 14:41:27 r12a: it's also a problem of determing which is the right list for you 14:41:40 gb, help alias? 14:41:40 Bert, I am a bot to look up and create GitHub issues and 14:41:40 … action items. I am an instance of GHURLBot 0.5. 14:41:40 … Try gb, help commands or 14:41:40 … see https://w3c.github.io/GHURLBot/manual.html 14:41:40 addison: it's tricky 14:41:49 ... the world is a big place 14:42:53 zakim, take up agendum 11 14:42:53 agendum 11 -- WebNN -- taken up [from addison] 14:43:20 https://github.com/webmachinelearning/webnn/pull/841/files 14:43:21 https://github.com/webmachinelearning/webnn/pull/841 -> MERGED Pull Request 841 Add notes regarding label usage, provided by i18n review (by inexorabletash) 14:43:25 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1999 14:43:26 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1999 -> Issue 1999 String metadata and localization for operator labels (by xfq) [close?] [needs-resolution] [s:webnn] [t:loc_localization] [wg:webmachinelearning] 14:44:48 [xfq introduces the issue and PR] 14:45:06 addison: I think this is a classical tension 14:45:24 ... particularly with develop facing stuff 14:45:39 ... the statement that the string isn't intended to be natural language 14:45:50 ... I think the notes that they inserted look good 14:46:26 ... maybe the warning about Trojan Source is a good one but that's sort of a general purpose warning and maybe it doesn't need to be right there 14:47:03 ... I imagine they have other strings besides this which is Unicode data 14:47:15 ... if this is the only one then here is fine 14:47:58 agenda? 14:48:01 xfq: sounds good to me 14:48:12 zakim, take up agendum 7 14:48:12 agendum 7 -- ARIA key-shortcuts -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:48:16 rrsagent, make minutes 14:48:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/15-i18n-minutes.html xfq 14:48:23 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2141 14:48:23 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2141 -> Issue 2141 `aria-keyshortcuts` needs attention? (by aphillips) [i18n-tracker] 14:48:25 Daniel has left #i18n 14:48:33 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2025AprJun/0035.html 14:49:20 addison: aria-keyshortcuts 14:49:28 ... we have a longstanding issue 14:49:47 ... daniel invited us to their next call 14:49:59 ... y'all are invited to come too 14:50:03 zakim, take up agendum 9 14:50:03 agendum 9 -- Specdev "isomorphic string" PR -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:50:12 https://deploy-preview-158--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#char-string-byte-oriented 14:50:44 addison: a couple of weeks ago I showed you the early version of this section's rewrite 14:50:47 ... I took your feedback 14:50:53 ... and made some changes 14:51:07 ... hopefully better illustrating how bytestrings work 14:51:12 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/158 14:51:13 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/158 -> Pull Request 158 Address isomorphic string and ByteString guidance (by aphillips) 14:51:22 ... comments welcome 14:51:43 ... particularly interested in whether we got the mustard guidelines right 14:53:25 agenda+ Font filtering & generic fonts 14:53:50 zakim, take up agendum 12 14:53:50 agendum 12 -- Font filtering & generic fonts -- taken up [from r12a] 14:55:06 r12a: we now have generic(nastaliq) in CSS 14:55:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/15-i18n-minutes.html addison 14:55:31 ... I'm not sure whether the font filtering stuff that we were just talking about has an impact here 14:55:59 ... one of the things you'd be able to do with generic fonts is you could author a document without calling for a specific font at all 14:56:29 Zainab: I'll have to look into the specific lists for these different system fonts 14:57:21 r12a: in Safari's case you would fall back to the system nastaliq font 14:57:40 agenda? 14:57:42 ... but as a user you should be able to prioritize the order in which the fonts get chosen 14:58:09 zakim, take up agendum 10 14:58:09 agendum 10 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:58:43 rrsagent, make minutes 14:58:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/15-i18n-minutes.html xfq 14:58:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/15-i18n-minutes.html addison 14:59:13 present- Fantasai 14:59:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/15-i18n-minutes.html addison 17:02:24 zakim, bye 17:02:24 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Fantasai, JcK, Zainab, Fuqiao, Atsushi, Richard 17:02:24 Zakim has left #i18n