12:46:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:46:12 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/05/14-matf-irc
12:46:12 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:46:13 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Joe_Humbert
12:46:42 <Joe_Humbert> Zakim, This is MATF May, 14, 2025
12:46:42 <Zakim> got it, Joe_Humbert
12:46:58 <Joe_Humbert> Meeting: MATF May 14, 2025
12:47:21 <Joe_Humbert> agenda+ 1.3.5 - Identify Input Purpose
12:47:33 <Joe_Humbert> agenda+ 1.4.4 - Resize Text
12:52:52 <Joe_Humbert> agenda+ 2.1.1 - Keyboard
12:54:06 <Joe_Humbert> chair +
12:54:09 <Joe_Humbert> chair+
12:54:25 <Joe_Humbert> zakim, agenda?
12:54:25 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
12:54:26 <Zakim> 1. 1.3.5 - Identify Input Purpose [from Joe_Humbert]
12:54:26 <Zakim> 2. 1.4.4 - Resize Text [from Joe_Humbert]
12:54:26 <Zakim> 3. 2.1.1 - Keyboard [from Joe_Humbert]
12:54:36 <Joe_Humbert> present+
12:54:58 <Joe_Humbert> regrets+ Tim Gravemaker
12:55:09 <Joe_Humbert> regrets+ Hidde de Vries
12:55:23 <Joe_Humbert> regrets+ Jan Jaap de Groot
12:55:36 <Joe_Humbert> regrets+ Quintin Balsdon
12:55:48 <Joe_Humbert> regrets+ Jon Gibbins
13:01:10 <Carol> Carol has joined #MATF
13:01:19 <Carol> present+
13:02:06 <Illai> Illai has joined #matf
13:03:28 <Illai> present+
13:03:38 <AlainVagner> AlainVagner has joined #matf
13:04:17 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #matf
13:05:12 <rachaely> rachaely has joined #matf
13:05:19 <Detlev> scribe: Detlev
13:05:40 <AlainVagner> present+
13:06:13 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: JJ off today
13:06:14 <rachaely> present+
13:06:25 <Detlev> present+
13:06:31 <Joe_Humbert> move to next agendum
13:06:31 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- 1.3.5 - Identify Input Purpose -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert]
13:06:47 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: (sharing screen)
13:07:07 <julianmka> julianmka has joined #MATF
13:07:13 <julianmka> present+
13:07:21 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: Discussed before in GitHub issue and call
13:07:57 <Aash> Aash has joined #matf
13:08:03 <Aash> present+
13:08:04 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: topic what attributes are available natively
13:08:45 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: reading purpose from WCAG
13:09:36 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: WCAG2ICT says it applies as written - with note on lack of attributes specifying purpose
13:10:17 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: other topics about testing - difficult using user-based testing
13:11:00 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: did some testing - autofill in Android, some date showed up, other data didn't
13:11:28 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: autofill is only side effect
13:13:04 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: action to check with WCAG on intended application to software - why is it directly applicable in WCAG2ICT
13:14:05 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:14:07 <Detlev> ...how does list in WCAG 2.2 apply to native
13:14:33 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: no clear equivalent in native environments
13:14:48 <Illai> q+
13:15:31 <Joe_Humbert> ack Illai
13:15:37 <Detlev> Detlev: Does keyboard change?
13:16:31 <Detlev> Illai: In the light parsing SC removed, keychain in iOS similar in Android - is this really required?
13:17:40 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: on Android & iOS - keychain does not identify required input
13:18:06 <Jamie> q+
13:18:10 <Detlev> ...unclear what heuristic are used to drop data from keychain int field
13:18:53 <Jamie> q-
13:19:13 <Detlev> Illai: maybe not worth digging into it because OS is taking care of it?
13:20:42 <Carol> We can use the autoFillHint for Android native
13:21:00 <Carol> https://developer.android.com/reference/androidx/autofill/HintConstants
13:21:01 <Jamie> q
13:21:01 <Jamie> =
13:21:04 <Jamie> q+
13:23:04 <Detlev> Detlev: Fills in background of 1.3.5 in the web context and lack of implementations
13:23:41 <Detlev> ...for presenting appropriate keyboard it is useful
13:23:56 <Joe_Humbert> ack Jamie
13:24:01 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: The keychain to autofill date can also be helpful
13:25:45 <Detlev> jamie: Looking at WCAG section 7 - some things would apply conceptually - might be applicable eleswhere
13:25:59 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/2
13:26:07 <Joe_Humbert> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2mobile-22/#success-criterion-1-3-5-identify-input-purpose
13:26:46 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: A note for practical ways to test would be useful
13:27:07 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: (summarises notes from WCAG2ICT)
13:28:21 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: Do w estill thin it applies as written (with WCAG2ICT notes)?
13:29:05 <Detlev> Illai: Too many unknowns if we have equivalents
13:29:23 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: Do we need to identify known equivalents
13:29:33 <Carol> https://developer.android.com/reference/androidx/autofill/HintConstants
13:30:23 <Detlev> Carol: There are purpose equivalents in Android
13:30:50 <Joe_Humbert> ACTION: Need to research section 7 equivalents on iOS and Android
13:31:03 <Detlev> Jamie: It may not cover all of them - at least it remembers user name
13:31:18 <Carol>  autofillHint and importantForAutofill property for ANdroid
13:31:24 <Joe_Humbert> section 7: https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#input-purposes
13:32:21 <Detlev> Detlev: all that might be available right now does not map onto the original intent of the SC
13:32:39 <julianmka> q=
13:32:42 <julianmka> q+
13:32:46 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: all applies to autofill
13:32:49 <Joe_Humbert> ack julianmka
13:32:57 <julianmka> https://appt.org/en/guidelines/wcag/success-criterion-1-3-5?framework=swiftui
13:33:02 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:33:07 <Jamie> q+
13:33:13 <Jamie> present+
13:33:27 <Detlev> julianmka: appt.org has done some research on content types - autofill hints for Android
13:33:35 <Detlev> ...we can go off that
13:34:00 <Joe_Humbert> ack Jamie
13:34:09 <Detlev> Jamie: what needs to be resolved from the action item?
13:34:53 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: (relating histor of SC and relation to autofill side effect)
13:35:37 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: So we ask: is there at least an equivalent to the autcomplete attribute
13:35:46 <Detlev> Jamie: yes there are
13:36:24 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: we can write a second action based on the first one
13:36:42 <Detlev> ...to vaildate pass fails?
13:37:17 <Detlev> Jamie: What do we want to resolve?
13:37:48 <Detlev> ...this gives an update to section 7
13:39:04 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: we want to determine if WCAG2ICT is good enough or need modification - if no one has further comments, we can move on to next
13:40:10 <Carol> new guide on how to test them
13:40:31 <Aash> +1
13:40:39 <Carol> +1
13:40:44 <AlainVagner> +1
13:40:46 <Detlev> Detlev: add note about displaying custom keyboard for input types
13:40:54 <julianmka> +1
13:40:54 <rachaely> +1
13:41:01 <Jamie> +1 note
13:41:39 <Joe_Humbert> ACTION: Draft note about custom keyboards or keyboard that change to match the required input
13:41:40 <Detlev> Detlev: takes action to draft a note for customise keyboard
13:41:43 <Jamie> +1 to accepting WCAG2ICT version of 1.3.5 with an update to Section 7 of WCAG
13:42:15 <Detlev> julianmka: should we add a link to the page at aapt.org
13:42:49 <Detlev> Jamie: why not put those things in our own sectino 7?
13:43:03 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: these things change over time - updating problem
13:43:25 <Detlev> julianmka: we could have links to the platform api pages as well
13:44:13 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: we need to check our policy / retrictions regarding external non-standard 3rd party links
13:44:27 <Detlev> Jamie: There are a lot of those links in Understanding docs
13:44:44 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: This may be OK for understanding  - maybe not for notes
13:45:13 <Joe_Humbert> ACTION: ask WG about linking to appt.org or other 3rd party documentation
13:45:22 <Detlev> julianmka: maybe we submit an addition to the understandig docs to cover variation
13:46:32 <Detlev> julianmka: There have been changes / updates that have acknowledged mobile issues and variants
13:46:44 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: Most of those addressed mobile web
13:47:01 <Detlev> ...same in MAT slack channel
13:48:40 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: openness to have techniques, less so in common understanding docs? We can enquire abnotu that
13:49:04 <Joe_Humbert> move to next agendum
13:49:04 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 1.4.4 - Resize Text -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert]
13:49:29 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: Very large topic
13:49:59 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: (reading WCAG text, WCAG2ICT text)
13:50:37 <Detlev> ... "without use of AT"
13:51:39 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: Discussions were about viewport size, device specific text size settings and scaling behaviour
13:52:11 <Detlev> ...supporting OS specific AT settings
13:52:39 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert :note on timeline for supporting features
13:53:12 <Detlev> ...discussion on whether mobile is exempt from 1.4.4 (pending on the meaning of AT)
13:53:46 <Detlev> ...requesting clarificatino on defining what counts as AT
13:53:57 <rachaely> +1 to defining Assistive Technologies
13:54:38 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/730#issuecomment-2878110621
13:56:08 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: JJ commented based on issue response that on native mobile, system zoom would be a way to pass 1.4.4
13:56:42 <Detlev> ...also added info on sizes styles available on native mobile
13:57:12 <Detlev> ...there was discussion on large content viewer in iOS
13:57:36 <Detlev> ...concern on too much detail on techniques since tech changes quickly
13:57:59 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/3
13:58:11 <julianmka> q?
13:58:41 <julianmka> q+
13:58:45 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: mostly about the line what is AT, what isn't?
13:59:05 <Joe_Humbert> ack julianmka
13:59:16 <Joe_Humbert> close the queue
13:59:38 <Detlev> julianmka: We can lean on the fact that text resizing has robust support in OSs so that is what people need to do
13:59:55 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
14:00:00 <Jamie> present+
14:00:21 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: Greggs distinction still does not give full clarity regarding what is AT
14:01:01 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: More clarity on product segments on desktop, less for mobile
14:01:09 <Jamie> congrats to Joe_Humbert for leading
14:01:25 <Jamie> er thank you
14:02:07 <Joe_Humbert> Continue discussing SC 1.4.4 Next meeting
14:02:17 <Joe_Humbert> Zakim, List participants
14:02:17 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, Carol, Illai, AlainVagner, rachaely, Detlev, julianmka, Aash, Jamie
14:02:38 <Joe_Humbert> rrsagent, make minutes
14:02:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/14-matf-minutes.html Joe_Humbert
14:03:12 <Joe_Humbert> rrsagent, bye
14:03:12 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/14-matf-actions.rdf :
14:03:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Need to research section 7 equivalents on iOS and Android [1]
14:03:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/14-matf-irc#T13-30-50
14:03:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Draft note about custom keyboards or keyboard that change to match the required input [2]
14:03:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/14-matf-irc#T13-41-39
14:03:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ask WG about linking to appt.org or other 3rd party documentation [3]
14:03:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/14-matf-irc#T13-45-13