14:29:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ag
14:29:53 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/05/13-ag-irc
14:29:53 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:29:54 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
14:30:01 <Chuck> chair:  Chuck
14:30:09 <Chuck> meeting:  AGWG-2025-05-13
14:30:19 <Chuck> rrsagent, generate minutes
14:30:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/13-ag-minutes.html Chuck
14:30:29 <Chuck> regrets: Steve Faulkner, Jaunita Flessas
14:30:39 <Chuck> agenda+ WCAG 2 issues review  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2-issues/2025May/0001.html
14:30:45 <Chuck> zakim, clear agenda
14:30:45 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:30:50 <Chuck> agenda+ WCAG 2 issues review  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2-issues/2025May/0001.html
14:30:58 <Chuck> agenda+ Charter kick-off
14:31:13 <Chuck> agenda+ WCAG 3 details requirements https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/306
14:31:22 <Chuck> agenda+ Subgroup work
14:48:33 <Chuck> agenda?
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15:00:34 <ChrisLoiselle> regrets second half of meeting.
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15:01:11 <Laura_Carlson> Scribe list: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
15:01:15 <Chuck> present+
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15:01:46 <hdv> scribe+
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15:02:11 <Laura_Carlson> present+ Laura_Carlson
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15:02:34 <hdv> Topic: Introductions
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15:02:36 <alastairc> q+
15:02:39 <Chuck> ack ala
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15:02:51 <julierawe> present+
15:02:52 <MJ> present+
15:02:54 <hdv> Chuck: is there anyone new to the group or with a change of affiliation?
15:03:11 <hdv> alastairc: emails from me will come from a new address as our ccompany name changed to Bain
15:03:21 <hdv> Topic: Announcements
15:03:24 <hdv> Chuck: any announcements?
15:03:24 <Ben_Tillyer> q+
15:03:25 <kirkwood> present+
15:03:28 <Chuck> ack Ben
15:03:35 <hdv> s/Bain/Gain
15:03:40 <mfairchild_> present+
15:03:45 <Chuck> zakim, take up item 1
15:03:47 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- WCAG 2 issues review  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2-issues/2025May/0001.html -- taken up [from Chuck]
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15:04:02 <Graham> present+
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15:04:39 <alastairc> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/56/views/1
15:04:40 <hdv> alastairc: I'll share my screen
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15:05:06 <Makoto> present+
15:05:19 <hdv> BB: this project board, to see it, will require you to login as it's not public outside our working group
15:05:35 <hdv> BB: most items on the Sent for WG Approval list are fairly minor and straightforward
15:05:56 <hdv> BB: we're looking for folks on this call to give a thumbs  up or provide a review
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15:06:19 <hdv> BB: we'd love extra eyes on this besides the folks who look at these regularly on Fridays
15:06:49 <Glenda> present+
15:07:26 <Roland> present+
15:07:43 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/4337
15:07:46 <hdv> BB: on #4337 we had a request to make a change but we discussed and were not sure how we would include the proposed changes, so we suggested it to be closed and a new PR to be made
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15:08:03 <sarahhorton> present+
15:08:42 <hdv> BB: on #4349… one example in the note was reversed, Patrick added an example that is actually useful. I'll paste the text into IRC
15:08:47 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/4349/
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15:09:01 <kenneth> present+
15:09:02 <Chuck> q?
15:09:13 <hdv> (proposed change as BB not in IRC: Examples where a particular display orientation may be essential are a bank check, a piano application, slides for a projector or television, or virtual reality content where parts of the image (for instance, a status bar or heads-up display) always remain at a fixed orientation relative to the headset screens (and the user's eyes) regardless of the physical orientation of the headset)
15:09:23 <Jen_G> Present+
15:09:31 <hdv> alastairc: there are a few things that have been through this review process, we have changes based on those issues
15:09:46 <hdv> alastairc: #4370 is about writing the errata before we agree and merge the errata
15:09:57 <hdv> alastairc: this PR spells out the changes
15:10:11 <kenneth> q+
15:10:13 <Jen_G> Present+
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15:10:18 <maryjom> present+
15:10:25 <Chuck> ack ken
15:10:34 <hdv> alastairc: please raise issues before we get to CFC process
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15:11:05 <hdv> kenneth: this is also trying to make sure we include rest of the updates
15:11:17 <hdv> kenneth: changes in this PR is what I did for current CFC
15:11:27 <Chuck> q?
15:11:32 <hdv> alastairc: this is an invitation to check this before we go out to CFC. if we don't get replies we'll go to CFC end of this week or next
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15:11:36 <Chuck> zakim, take up next item
15:11:36 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Charter kick-off -- taken up [from Chuck]
15:11:54 <hdv> Chuck: Alastair will go through a slidedeck
15:11:55 <Detlev> present+
15:12:06 <hdv> Chuck: regarding the charter process
15:12:10 <kenneth> s/changes in this PR is what I did for current CFC/changes to the "Errata Since Current Publication" are specific to the current CFC/
15:12:10 <hdv> Chuck: we'll use conversational queuing
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15:12:35 <Chuck> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1kcLQwCH_Y0EfLvkI75RkSaGUyq7DOL8bdKs1tIEdy5c/edit#slide=id.p
15:13:30 <hdv> alastairc: we're going to work on a new Charter, which we'll need towards the fall/winter. We need quite a long timescale, traditionally we start in spring with this to get everyone's input
15:13:52 <hdv> alastairc: the focus of our 2023 charter was, for the first time as this group, wasn't on WCAG 2
15:14:08 <hdv> alastairc: we wanted to demonstrate major components of WCAG 3, what's part of it and what's not
15:14:25 <hdv> alastairc: we also wanted to have decided when WCAG 3 is delivered
15:14:33 <hdv> alastairc: we also said it would include a preliminary set of guidelines
15:14:51 <hdv> alastairc: also a representative set of outcomes worked out in details
15:14:58 <hdv> alastairc: at least one example of each type / category
15:15:02 <hdv> alastairc: a candidate conformance model
15:15:10 <hdv> alastairc: and an approach on testing emerging tech
15:15:37 <hdv> alastairc: no normative guidance for authoring tools, but maybe some informative guidance
15:15:51 <hdv> alastairc: this was to avoid potential pushback from W3C members who produce UAs or authoring tools
15:16:41 <hdv> alastairc: we also had a few more items in the charter, things like updating WCAG2ICT, tackling open WCAG 2 issues, secondary research (incl COGA), ACT rules updates and format changes, and updates to informative guidance
15:18:03 <hdv> alastairc: since then, we've been working on new requirements, we had about 50 last time I checked, in rough versions (GDocs). We also have a draft conformance approach, with options to sort through. Also draft of an accessibilty supported update
15:18:16 <hdv> alastairc: we've also got draft definitions like page/views/UI contexts
15:18:34 <hdv> alastairc: we've got draft assertions too, to provide better coverage of disabilities
15:18:43 <hdv> alastairc: we're also maintaining 'the criteria for criteria'
15:19:01 <hdv> alastairc: and we have a few months to go, with some work to do. We've got the highest number of attendance that we've had in this group's history
15:19:13 <hdv> alastairc: just need to be efficient
15:19:47 <hdv> alastairc: goals for this year: developmental drafts for reqs we agree to include, requirements in 'refining' or 'mature' levels (incl associated informative docs)
15:19:58 <hdv> alastairc: maybe those about colour contrast and inputs
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15:20:10 <Frankie> present+
15:20:21 <hdv> alastairc: that enables us, given velocity of those two requirements, to find out how long it will take to find out the rest
15:20:32 <hdv> alastairc: we need also some conformance criteria
15:20:48 <hdv> alastairc: refine definitions too, especially the ones that concern scoping
15:20:56 <hdv> alastairc: we should also finalise the structure for requirements and assertions
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15:21:10 <tiffanyburtin> present+
15:21:22 <hdv> alastairc: and lastly, create the schedule for WCAG 3. We don't have a final timeline, but part of this charter is to come up with a realistic timeframe
15:21:39 <hdv> alastairc: now, what we're drafting for the 2025 charter… this is still very much draft
15:21:46 <hdv> alastairc: we'll take what we had in 2023 and move to the next st eps
15:22:19 <hdv> alastairc: now is a good time for TF facilitators to think about what you want to achieve in next few years
15:22:23 <hdv> alastairc: there's also potential for policy work
15:22:36 <hdv> alastairc: this has been a general intro to what we've done and we want done before end of the year.
15:23:09 <shadi> q+
15:23:16 <Chuck> ack shadi
15:23:20 <hdv> alastairc: we are looking for feedback, ideally things that are specific enough to include in the charter, and things that can be defined in time for October
15:23:32 <hdv> shadi: thank you so much for bringing this discussion to the group
15:24:18 <hdv> shadi: rechartering can take time, especially with things that are so important as this, and important to take diverse perspectives into account. So I am glad we're opening it early
15:24:50 <hdv> shadi: I am concerned about our work in the conformance area. In the charter, we say things like we'll define a working conformance system for WCAG 3… that is one of the items outstanding for the next five months
15:25:13 <hdv> shadi: it will probably take more than five months, even just to get an understanding. The discussion will take several months
15:26:10 <hdv> shadi: the assessment in these slides is different than the one in the requirement doc, would like us to use those more to measure progress.
15:26:18 <bbailey> q?
15:27:02 <Wilco> +1
15:27:11 <hdv> shadi: re the next chartering period… this charter was important to focus fully on WCAG 3, for the first time. But I don't think it's a good idea to have a new charter that doesn't have specific deliverables, in ways that tangiablly move accessibility forward
15:27:31 <hdv> shadi: we should have those to work on, while we continue iteratively on a bunch of things.
15:27:31 <Chuck> q?
15:27:34 <kevin> q+
15:27:37 <kirkwood> +1
15:27:38 <Chuck> ack kevin
15:27:40 <hdv> shadi: we can't do all at once
15:28:35 <Chuck> q?
15:28:45 <hdv> kevin: I'm interested for us as a group to find out more what tangible looks like and explore that a little bit more.
15:28:45 <Wilco> q+
15:28:48 <Chuck> ack Wilco
15:29:32 <hdv> Wilco: in Alastair's presentation I keep hearing the words 'refining' and 'finalising'… but looking at the drafts I don't think we're at that stage yet, the conformance model seems fairly basic, the requirements are not clearly defined yetr
15:29:36 <hdv> s/yetr/yet
15:29:37 <alastairc> q+
15:29:42 <hdv> Wilco: I think we're very far away from a completed document
15:29:52 <hdv> Wilco: considering how much time we've put towards it yet
15:29:57 <shadi> From the current Charter: "Solutions will not all be complete at the end of this charter period, but they will be sufficiently mature so that reviewers can understand the intended scope of WCAG 3 as a whole, and will have enough depth to understand how conformance evaluations for WCAG 3 will work" and "In this charter period, AG WG will define a
15:29:57 <shadi> working conformance model for WCAG 3"
15:30:11 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/2023/11/ag-charter
15:30:25 <GreggVan> q+
15:30:29 <hdv> Wilco: I don't feel particularly strongly what we should focus on, but we should not get in the habit of spending charter after charter delivering drafts. This group has a responsibility to the world to deliver meaningful results
15:30:43 <hdv> Wilco: I don't think it's ok for another charter where we're delivering drafts
15:30:44 <Chuck> ack ala
15:31:33 <hdv> alastairc: just want to check… all work we've been doing since the last draft is in the Google Docs at the moment. We have a shared glossary, about 50 requirements drafted. I just wanted to point out if anyone is just looking at the latest public facing draft, there is a lot stored up that we need to get in the next draft. That could be skewing perspectives
15:31:33 <bbailey> q+ to give +1 to Shadi and Wilco concerns but I am okay with development pace
15:31:35 <Chuck> ack Gregg
15:31:39 <hdv> q+
15:31:48 <kirkwood> does that mean we are not publishing often enough?
15:32:18 <hdv> GreggVan: it takes a long time to create standards, and to do what we're trying to do, is going to take a long time
15:32:27 <JenStrickland2> q+
15:32:59 <kirkwood> +1 to “concrete milestone”
15:33:20 <hdv> GreggVan: we're trying to do something that hasn't been done before
15:33:24 <kirkwood> s/milestone/milestones
15:33:29 <shadi> q+
15:33:38 <Chuck> ack bb
15:33:38 <Zakim> bbailey, you wanted to give +1 to Shadi and Wilco concerns but I am okay with development pace
15:33:58 <Glenda> q+
15:34:08 <hdv> bbailey: +1 to Shadi and Wilco and Gregg. I think we're moving at a pace that could be expected. Only caveat I would have is conformance… 
15:34:13 <Chuck> ack hdv
15:34:15 <alastairc> scribe+
15:34:17 <GreggVan> q+
15:34:34 <alastairc> hdv: I'm a little worried, not just about pace, but more on the amount of changes we're planning for.
15:34:52 <alastairc> ... We're changing a lot of things at once, might make it harder to get adopted.
15:35:17 <alastairc> ... if it's wildly different. Is that something we want to do, or could we stay closer to WCAG 2? Including changes we're looking at.
15:35:24 <bbailey> IMHO, next charter can be confident about having a conformance model -- but maybe not SCORING per se
15:35:44 <alastairc> ... also worried we're spending too much time on certain subjects, and they aren't providing tangible benefits.
15:35:45 <Ben_Tillyer> -1 to Hidde, with WCAG 2 already in place, I feel regulators will be happy enough to explore how to adopt WCAG 3 in a sensible timeline
15:35:56 <Wilco> +1
15:36:07 <alastairc> q+ to ask Hidde what that would mean, in practce?
15:36:15 <Chuck> ack Jen
15:36:22 <alastairc> scribe-
15:37:13 <DJ> q?
15:37:15 <hdv> JenStrickland2: there is a concern with how much time all this is taking. But when we think about the humans we're serving, they're waiting. There are people with disabilities who were not traditionally considered
15:37:50 <alastairc> q+ on WCAG 2.x experience
15:37:51 <hdv> JenStrickland2: I trust that the chairs have thought about this.
15:38:19 <DJ> +1 to jen on us loosing faith
15:38:25 <DJ> q+
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15:38:31 <julierawe> present+
15:38:46 <hdv> JenStrickland2: but I do think we are losing faith and trust from people who are used to using WCAG. We don't want compromised quality, but we have a responsibility to serve the needs of the people. If what we're trying to create is this huge thing, we need to think about how we can make it work
15:39:05 <Chuck> q+ to discuss our meeting time.
15:39:11 <Chuck> ack Shadi
15:39:25 <hdv> shadi: it's amazing work by the chairs and the group at large
15:40:14 <hdv> shadi: but looking at the charter itself, in current charter we don't have success criteria, timeline or breakdown in iterations. This was necessary for the current draft and starting work on WCAG 3, but just worried we'd do the same for the next charter
15:40:29 <hdv> shadi: we don't have to do it all at once
15:40:49 <Rachael> q+ to discuss wide net and then narrow next step
15:40:51 <Chuck> ack Glenda
15:40:56 <hdv> shadi: we need to focus, in the next months, on what our priorities are and how we can write down a series of milestones
15:41:13 <kirkwood> +1
15:41:16 <hdv> Glenda: I want do acknowledge how much work has been done. It's very exciting to work with you all, loving the subgroup work. This is a massive undertaking
15:41:20 <hdv> Glenda: it feels waterfall to me
15:41:35 <JenStrickland2> +1 to Glenda
15:41:41 <hdv> Glenda: and not fast enough, not agile enough, to meet the needs of people with disabilities
15:41:44 <JenStrickland2> [regarding waterfall v agile]
15:41:51 <kirkwood> cough… cognitive  ;)
15:42:01 <hdv> Glenda: so it would be very helpful to break it up
15:42:10 <Chuck> q?
15:42:11 <hdv> Glenda: have parts that we can publish without waiting for the whole thing
15:42:12 <maryjom> +1 to Glenda
15:42:14 <Chuck> ack Gregg
15:42:34 <kirkwood> +1 to removing scoring
15:42:40 <hdv> GreggVan: I would suggest removing the word 'scoring' from our list, unless we're talking about feasability of scoring
15:43:02 <shadi> q+ to respond to Gregg on scoring
15:43:41 <hdv> GreggVan: I also wanted to make a point on AI impact, I think AI will have a massive impact in 5 years. In 10 years, the whole standard might be somewhat obviated and we'd have to start all over again. I suggest we have a separate AI impact subgroup
15:43:42 <ljoakley> I'm already seeing accessibility issues with AI in my applications
15:44:04 <kirkwood> +1 to AI impact
15:44:38 <hdv> GreggVan: Jennifer, you said we are not fast enough and others are stepping in, what were you referring to?
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15:44:51 <Chuck> ack ala
15:44:51 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to ask Hidde what that would mean, in practce? and to comment on WCAG 2.x experience
15:45:07 <shadi> q+ to "others stepping in"
15:45:15 <hdv> alastairc: re filling in gaps for people with disabilities sooner… my question would be what and how?
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15:45:22 <LenB> present+
15:45:54 <mgifford2> Liked GreggVan point. In 2025, how are people going to be learning standards? AI is going to be key to those people who are going to start reading WCAG3.
15:45:57 <hdv> alastairc: having gone through WCAG 2.1 and 2.2 process, it's been getting harder and harder to fit new requirements in that structure, that's one of the reasons in my mind that we're redoing things to make it more flexible and work better for requirements we have now, but have a mechanism for the future
15:46:23 <hdv> q++ to respond to alastairc
15:46:39 <hdv> q-+
15:47:12 <Chuck> ack DJ
15:47:15 <hdv> q+ to respond to alastair
15:47:27 <Wilco> q+ to talk about no good solutions
15:47:30 <Chuck> zakim, close queue
15:47:30 <Zakim> ok, Chuck, the speaker queue is closed
15:47:54 <hdv> DJ: I agree with most… I agree with Alastair re considering how standards can fit in regulatory frameworks
15:48:13 <hdv> DJ: and I agree with Jennifer… I know younger accessibility people who don't pay much attention to WCAG anymore
15:48:43 <hdv> DJ: the first version of WCAG was very general and not very testable… very useful for the time. But we've moved past a single list of guidelines, it seems. That seems to be the issue now
15:48:58 <hdv> DJ: I think a list of guidelines works anymore, we need a different structure
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15:49:26 <Chuck> ack Ch
15:49:26 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to discuss our meeting time.
15:49:33 <mgifford2> Nice points DJ
15:49:47 <hdv> Chuck: I've closed the queue, this is not the end of the conversation
15:49:54 <Chuck> ack Rach
15:49:54 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to discuss wide net and then narrow next step
15:50:21 <hdv> Rachael: when we set out on this path at the beginning of the charter… one thing we decided is to cast a wide net to understand the space to cover in order to narrow it down
15:50:56 <hdv> Rachael: the wide net was intentional, almost like double diamond in design. Narrowing it down was always part of the down. Next step is to figure out what we want to focus on.
15:51:11 <Chuck> ack Shadi
15:51:11 <Zakim> shadi, you wanted to respond to Gregg on scoring and to "others stepping in"
15:51:12 <hdv> Rachael: we're not looking at as broad a net as the current draft, next round should be more focused
15:51:22 <alastairc> Rachael mentioned double diamond, if anyone isn't familiar: https://www.thefountaininstitute.com/blog/what-is-the-double-diamond-design-process
15:51:31 <mgifford2> Thanks Rachael for that.
15:51:47 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/TR/accessibility-metrics-report/
15:52:13 <hdv> shadi: to respond to scoring… a report on metrics is from 2012 and that's based on prior words, we've been talking about this for a very long itme
15:52:16 <hdv> s/itme/time
15:52:45 <hdv> shadi: rather than continuing to debate, we should get to some tangible outcome, it's an elephant in the room
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15:52:57 <CarrieH> present+
15:53:11 <hdv> shadi: reacting on others stepping in… the word accessibility in the directive is not just using WCAG, it's not just WCAG, it's WCAG plus
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15:53:38 <Francis_Storr> present+
15:53:38 <hdv> shadi: we saw people add/change things in WCAG 1, and we see it now with WCAG 2
15:53:42 <kirkwood> WCAG is a good foundation to build on
15:54:00 <Ben_Tillyer> shadi isn't that a sign of WCAGs success, not its failures?
15:54:04 <Chuck> ack hdv
15:54:04 <Zakim> hdv, you wanted to respond to alastair
15:54:09 <GreggVan> q+
15:54:09 <alastairc> scribe+
15:54:33 <mgifford2> Was nice to see the EN 301549 standard almost include Dark Mode. Several governments outside of the EU have already adopted this evergreen accessibility standard.
15:54:56 <shadi> Ben_Tillyer, WCAG is definitely a amazing success! but we are starting to see fragmentation and need to keep delivering to avoid that.
15:55:18 <shadi> s/a amazing/an amazing
15:55:42 <Chuck> ack hdv
15:55:48 <alastairc> hdv: Alastair mentioned about practical next step. Concern on diverging from WCAG2. Wanted to make sure we stay close where we can. If we don't diverge too much, concerned about time needed to incorporate into regulations.
15:55:56 <GreggVan> COMMENT to clarify the record.     WAD does not diverge from WCAG and  EN 301 549  which implements WAD also uses WCAG exclusively for  WEB CONTENT.   Biometrics is outside of web and include hardware -- and other examples are also outside of WEB content
15:56:03 <Chuck> ack Wilco
15:56:03 <Zakim> Wilco, you wanted to talk about no good solutions
15:56:19 <GreggVan> a/WEB CONTENT/web content/
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15:56:27 <shadi> Gregg, WAD applies biometrics etc to web content!
15:56:29 <kirkwood> we should address accessibility blockers and provide procedures to overcome them
15:56:30 <julierawe> present+
15:56:42 <hdv> Wilco: there are no perfect options, but worst would be to not ship anything… we could start with a subset
15:56:43 <DJ> wilco++
15:56:44 <julierawe> q+ about next week's deadline for comments about the SMART requirements
15:57:02 <hdv> Wilco: we don't need WCAG 3 to be the thing that everyone thinks of as WCAG 3
15:57:07 <hdv> Wilco: that can be WCAG 4
15:57:12 <julierawe> q+ about next week deadline
15:57:21 <GreggVan> yes - but ibiometrics is much broader and web is a sliver of it -- so not appropriate to list only there
15:57:25 <shadi> +1 to Wilco
15:57:41 <hdv> Wilco: we need to look at the problems to feasibly solve, and when we can do them
15:57:44 <hdv> +1 to Wilco
15:57:45 <alastairc> julierawe - that's the next topic.
15:58:04 <hdv> Wilco: until we know what different proposals look like, we can't really have convos about what we do next
15:58:10 <Chuck> zakim, take up next item
15:58:10 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- WCAG 3 details requirements https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/306 -- taken up [from Chuck]
15:58:12 <shadi> Gregg, fact is that EU uses WCAG2+ which is a fragmentation
15:58:20 <Chuck> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/306
15:58:35 <alastairc> shadi - wouldn't we have to break out of "web" to solve that?
15:58:45 <GreggVan> EU is using EN 301 549  which uses  2.2     we just updated it
15:59:10 <maryjom> +1 to Wilco
15:59:18 <hdv> yes but also other things than 2.2 , Gregg
15:59:24 <shadi> alastairc, we also have contrast that applies beyond web, why is that different to biometrics?
15:59:30 <DJ> alastairc: wcag3 is w3c accessibility guidelines, not web content accessibility guidelines :)
15:59:42 <bbailey> q+
15:59:44 <julierawe> q+
15:59:47 <Chuck> ack bb
16:00:13 <hdv> bbailey: was looking for clarity on the GH thread. But looks like we want thumbs up on the GH thread
16:00:18 <hdv> Chuck: thumbs up per topic would be helpful
16:00:24 <Rachael> Each requirement is its own comment. Please thumbs up, thumbs down or eyes (read it but don't have an opinion)
16:00:26 <Chuck> ack Julie
16:00:58 <hdv> julierawe: a general thing to add… re use of SMART, is this our way to talk about KPIs / break out different elements of KPIs? there were some concerns in COGA re the use of the SMART acronym
16:00:58 <GreggVan> EN 301 549 covers  web and ATMs and  TVs and operating systems  and many non-web technologies    so it of course it is broader than wcag    But there is no fragmentation if EN 301 549  uses  WCAG    verbatim     which it does
16:01:39 <GreggVan> having additional provisions for other things is not fragmentation - it is augmentation.    Fragmentation is when things are different for the same topic.
16:01:43 <hdv> julierawe: could we potentially use a loose version of that?
16:02:00 <hdv> Chuck: we'll talk about how we present it
16:02:09 <hdv> scribe-
16:02:19 <shadi> @Gregg, look at Annex A.1 for web content please
16:02:25 <alastairc> I don't think we are being strict about that aspect, it's just a way to make sure each is timed, feasible, concrete.
16:02:38 <julierawe> Adding to the notes that COGA's concern is about the specific elements in the SMART acronym, not the name itself
16:02:44 <JenStrickland2> Sorry, I don't have the cognitive spoons for sub-group contribution this week. See ya next week!
16:03:07 <Chuck> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/13-ag-minutes.html Chuck
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