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13:56:49 <acoburn> zakim, start meeting
13:56:49 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:56:51 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), acoburn
13:56:58 <acoburn> meeting: Linked Web Storage
13:57:13 <acoburn> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a19ab7dc-1753-433d-bac5-64e3ad8c0a43/20250512T100000/#agenda
13:57:15 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:57:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Introductions and announcements
13:57:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
13:57:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Resolutions
13:57:15 <agendabot> agenda+ User cases and requirements status
13:57:17 <agendabot> agenda+ Discussion: Authorization use cases and scope
13:57:19 <acoburn> chair: acoburn
13:58:05 <acoburn> RRSAgent, make minutes
13:58:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/12-lws-minutes.html acoburn
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14:00:16 <eBremer> present+
14:00:24 <pchampin> present+
14:00:32 <gibsonf1> present+
14:00:43 <acoburn> present+
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14:00:56 <hadrian> present+
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14:01:37 <uvdsl> present+
14:01:42 <bendm> present+
14:01:42 <RN> present+
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14:03:09 <eBremer> scribe+
14:03:18 <acoburn> scribenick: eBremer
14:03:25 <csarven> present+
14:03:42 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 1
14:03:42 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Introductions and announcements -- taken up [from agendabot]
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14:04:28 <cpn> present+
14:04:52 <eBremer> acoburn: I want to talk about TPAC
14:05:00 <eBremer> ... occurs in Fall hosted by W3C
14:05:22 <eBremer> i hear you
14:06:04 <eBremer> acoburn: great opportunity for face to face conversations...
14:06:37 <eBremer> ... given time frame of working group....this coming Fall only opportunity
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14:07:03 <eBremer> ...is anyone planning to attend TPAC...
14:07:33 <eBremer> ... just trying to gauge the audience...
14:08:12 <uvdsl> we (tobias and myself) probably wont be able to be at TPAC in person
14:08:37 <bendm> I most probably won't be able to attend TPAC in person
14:08:42 <pchampin> FTR, I will be attending TPAC (and ISWC)
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14:09:04 <eBremer> acoburn: .. would make arrangements to do remote
14:10:51 <eBremer> jesse: solid symposium will probably be a no.  it wont be in the fall
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14:11:18 <eBremer> acoburn: we  want to make sure we are making good progress on the specification..
14:11:35 <eBremer> ... not wait for a full additional year passess.
14:11:40 <eBremer> jesse: I agree
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14:11:50 <jeswr> present+
14:11:56 <laurens> present+
14:11:57 <kaefer3000> present+
14:12:18 <eBremer> acoburn: looks like some positive reactions to somewhere in Europe or London-ish...
14:12:34 <bartb> present+
14:12:41 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 2
14:12:41 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:13:00 <eBremer> acoburn: only one standing action item...
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14:13:30 <eBremer> hadrian: issue one closed last week
14:13:40 <eBremer> ... this week, 37, 109, 113 were closed
14:14:10 <eBremer> ... they are mostly duplicate of other and  31, 34, 107, 111, 35, and 95
14:14:23 <acoburn> q?
14:14:34 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 3
14:14:34 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Resolutions -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:14:36 <eBremer> ... are not closed yet, but they are ready to close pending mergin 149
14:15:14 <hadrian> q+
14:15:24 <acoburn> -> https://w3c.github.io/lws-ucs/spec/ Current draft using GH Pages
14:15:27 <eBremer> acoburn: two procedural steps related to the publication of first drafts documents such as the UCR document6
14:15:40 <acoburn> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/lws-ucs/ 404 Not Found on W3C site
14:15:50 <eBremer> ... this is not a document thats on the rec track, but it will be published as a note
14:16:10 <eBremer> ... alot of work with use cases document
14:16:24 <TallTed> present+
14:16:29 <acoburn> ack next
14:17:06 <eBremer> hadrian: conversation a whole ago about having links and tracking procenance of use cases and all that
14:17:21 <eBremer> ... documents has to be self-contained...
14:17:48 <pchampin> q+
14:17:54 <acoburn> ack next
14:18:25 <eBremer> pchampin: hadrian, you raise this issue of having long lived links to the use cases....
14:19:00 <eBremer> ... so I made  a PR on the UC documents where basically just wrote a script that created sections for the use cases...
14:19:05 <eBremer> ... in the github
14:19:26 <eBremer> ... more consistent on text but at least we will have this.
14:19:55 <csarven> q+
14:20:01 <eBremer> ... LWS-UCS is the current short name.  we could decide to change.
14:20:05 <acoburn> ack next
14:20:32 <eBremer> csarven: I would suggest not to use numbers.
14:20:50 <eBremer> ... give human readable in order to move it around easier....
14:20:50 <pchampin> q+
14:20:54 <hadrian> q+
14:21:02 <eBremer> ... maybe not what you were getting at...
14:21:21 <eBremer> pchampin: I use the issue numbers as assigned by github
14:21:36 <eBremer> ... not that they would represent any order in the final document
14:21:49 <eBremer> ... not the most user-friendly achors
14:22:17 <eBremer> ... problem with user-friendy, if we rename use case...opaque identifiers more robust
14:22:27 <eBremer> csarven: thats fine
14:22:36 <acoburn> ack next
14:22:45 <acoburn> ack next
14:22:58 <eBremer> hadrian: use cases titles are also definitions..
14:23:11 <eBremer> ... if we use numbers, I will make sure they are in-sync
14:23:22 <eBremer> acoburn: questions about publishing the first draft?
14:23:58 <eBremer> pchampin: idea of publishing first draft is just that, its a draft, lets not worry about it being in the perfect shape
14:24:04 <eBremer> ... release early...
14:24:27 <eBremer> ... second resoloution is release often part..
14:24:38 <eBremer> s/resoloution /resolution/
14:24:52 <acoburn> PROPOSAL: The Linked Web Storage WG will publish the first draft of the Use Cases and Requirements document at https://www.w3.org/TR/lws-ucs/
14:25:28 <laurens> +1
14:25:29 <pchampin> +1
14:25:32 <gibsonf1> +1
14:25:38 <bendm> +1
14:25:44 <hadrian> +1
14:25:45 <eBremer> +1
14:25:51 <bartb> +1
14:25:52 <RN> +1
14:25:52 <kaefer3000> +1
14:25:53 <dmitriz> +1
14:25:55 <csarven> 0
14:25:59 <acoburn> +1
14:26:28 <TallTed> +1
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14:26:49 <cpn> +1
14:26:49 <csarven> q+
14:27:04 <acoburn> ack next
14:28:17 <eBremer> csarven: im not sure if there anything substative that would meet a first draft..
14:28:55 <eBremer> ...not like any representative of most things we have been discussing
14:29:02 <acoburn> RESOLUTION: The Linked Web Storage WG will publish the first draft of the Use Cases and Requirements document at https://www.w3.org/TR/lws-ucs/
14:29:17 <eBremer> ...but it its still useful for the community.  no objection from me
14:29:20 <acoburn> PROPOSAL: The Linked Web Storage WG will use echidna for subsequent publications of the Use Cases and Requirements document.
14:29:33 <acoburn> -> https://github.com/w3c/echidna/wiki/How-to-use-Echidna Using Echidna
14:29:42 <csarven> s/but it/but if the group thinks it is
14:29:49 <eBremer> acoburn: to use Echidna, used widely in W3C for publishing these specification...
14:29:59 <acoburn> -> https://github.com/w3c/echidna/wiki/How-to-use-Echidna#group-decision Using Echidna requires a WG decision
14:30:12 <eBremer> ... in order to use it, use in this location
14:30:36 <eBremer> s/use it, use in this location/use it, look at this location
14:30:56 <gibsonf1> +1
14:31:07 <pchampin> +1
14:31:18 <bendm> +1
14:31:20 <TallTed> +1
14:31:21 <eBremer> acoburn: whenever a main branch happens, for example, Echidna would automatically go through all of the automation...
14:31:36 <bartb> +1
14:31:37 <RN> +1
14:31:40 <eBremer> +1
14:31:44 <acoburn> s/whenever a main branch/whenever a merge to the main branch/
14:31:50 <hadrian> +1
14:31:51 <acoburn> +1
14:32:06 <laurens> +1
14:32:22 <cpn> +1
14:32:27 <acoburn> RESOLUTION: The Linked Web Storage WG will use echidna for subsequent publications of the Use Cases and Requirements document.
14:32:49 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 4
14:32:49 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- User cases and requirements status -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:33:29 <eBremer> acoburn: hadrian, where we are in terms of the status of the use case and requirements document...
14:34:15 <eBremer> hadrian: my focus right now is on sharing and consent which ties into the identities and infrastructure
14:34:42 <eBremer> ... notifications and discovery...i think we are going to discuss later...
14:35:22 <eBremer> ...notifications should be part of spec or just mention because its really a big thing
14:36:23 <eBremer> acoburn: even if it doesnt make it in, there are a lot of advantages to having this described in a use cases document
14:37:19 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 5
14:37:19 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Discussion: Authorization use cases and scope -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:37:36 <eBremer> acoburn: this will take several weeks of discussion...
14:38:08 <eBremer> ... and that will probably just limited to framing the topic and scoping it...
14:38:23 <eBremer> ... authorization is a tricky one.
14:38:47 <eBremer> ... partly because its such a big area.... we do have prior art
14:39:01 <eBremer> ... want to scope so as not to boil the ocean...
14:39:40 <eBremer> ... try not to prevent us from doing new things..
14:40:57 <eBremer> ... WAC is something that goes back a very long time...
14:41:10 <eBremer> ... other attempts...Inrupt's ACP
14:41:40 <eBremer> ... just sort of a discussion at this point....I want to open the floor to comments, questions, and discussion
14:41:42 <csarven> q+ Prefer simple solutions
14:41:49 <dmitriz> (I'd also add zcap-ld to authorization methods)
14:41:54 <acoburn> ack next
14:42:17 <gibsonf1> q+ agent hierarchy and resource hierarchy (in context of authorization)
14:42:35 <gibsonf1> q+ to say agent hierarchy and resource hierarchy (in context of authorization)
14:43:09 <eBremer> csarven: I like the idea of what you said breaking it down to some function and non-functional requirements.
14:43:20 <csarven> https://www.w3.org/TR/design-principles/#simplicity
14:43:41 <eBremer> ... one or more solutions that might come out to cover various aspects of those use cases.
14:43:58 <eBremer> ... can do fine with simple solutions.
14:44:22 <eBremer> ... solutions as simple as possible
14:44:39 <eBremer> ... implementable within a reasonable amount of time
14:44:53 <eBremer> ... more complex number of implementations will drop
14:45:06 <eBremer> ... developers will say "too complex"
14:45:39 <eBremer> ... take google docs, four options for control...
14:45:57 <eBremer> ... you can map them easily to read write append
14:46:12 <eBremer> ... I'd rather see something like that then something far more complex
14:46:42 <eBremer> ...than jeopardize the number of implementations that we might have
14:47:09 <eBremer> ... were almost halfway into this group and we dot have a use cases document out
14:47:32 <eBremer> ... generally prefer simpler solutions over complex ones
14:47:38 <bendm> q+ to talk about usage control (needed by EU law for personal data), and to talk about have simplicity as a base, and extensibility to external authz servers)
14:47:44 <acoburn> ack next
14:47:45 <Zakim> gibsonf, you wanted to say agent hierarchy and resource hierarchy (in context of authorization)
14:47:52 <eBremer> acoburn: simplicity really relevant here.
14:48:14 <csarven> s/for control/for access control
14:48:32 <csarven> s/append/append and control
14:48:36 <eBremer> gibsonf1: on authorization, who does it and what gets done
14:49:07 <csarven> s/access control/access control like viewer, editor, commenter, owner
14:49:14 <acoburn> ack next
14:49:15 <Zakim> bendm, you wanted to talk about usage control (needed by EU law for personal data), and to talk about have simplicity as a base, and extensibility to external authz servers)
14:49:17 <eBremer> ... a department, a whole company....doesn't scale if you dont have some kind of hierachy
14:49:52 <csarven> s/dot/do not/
14:50:04 <eBremer> bendm: example within GDPR laws, just who gets access to what but also for which purpose...
14:50:54 <acoburn> q?
14:50:55 <eBremer> ... start with some simple but is extensible
14:51:40 <eBremer> acoburn: finding balance of simplicity that Sarven is speaking about with making sure it is feasible to deply it in a context where you need something more
14:51:52 <csarven> q+
14:51:58 <acoburn> ack next
14:52:19 <eBremer> csarven: if we can show some form of success.
14:52:34 <eBremer> ... allow us to renew and extend charter
14:53:39 <eBremer> ... instead of going all-in with the complex thing and then jeopardizing
14:54:36 <eBremer> ... we have 10, 20 people relatively active,.  not sur eif that is enough to show that we have implementation experience
14:55:01 <eBremer> ... simpler choice  is going to get us to the finish line
14:55:41 <gibsonf1> q+
14:55:47 <acoburn> ack next
14:56:01 <eBremer> acoburn: we need to come up with something and if it is as consistent and as implementable as possible
14:56:29 <csarven> s/allow us to renew and extend charter/help us be in a better position to make the case to request an extension or renew charter
14:56:33 <eBremer> gibsonf1: like idea of simple protocol but ideal could be built on
14:56:52 <eBremer> acoburn: better if we can extend rather than re-write
14:57:01 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:57:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/12-lws-minutes.html pchampin
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14:57:19 <csarven> s/jeopardizing/jeopardizing showing "adequate implementation experience"
14:57:33 <ericP> regrets+ ericP
14:58:06 <acoburn> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:58:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/12-lws-minutes.html acoburn
14:59:17 <acoburn> s/jesse:/jeswr:/
14:59:32 <acoburn> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:59:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/12-lws-minutes.html acoburn
15:00:13 <acoburn> s/jesse:/jeswr:/
15:00:15 <acoburn> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:00:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/12-lws-minutes.html acoburn
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