14:47:19 RRSAgent has joined #pointerevents 14:47:23 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-pointerevents-irc 14:55:17 Meeting: PEWG 14:55:22 Chair: Patrick H. Lauke 14:55:26 Scribe: Patrick H. Lauke 14:55:33 ScribeNick: Patrick_H_Lauke 14:56:00 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/66591f6b-6694-4f90-b23d-bf8f1b9dda8a/20250507T110000/ 14:56:07 present+ 15:00:53 flackr has joined #pointerevents 15:01:05 present+ 15:02:04 present+ 15:02:23 present+ 15:02:28 TOPIC: PE3 candidate recommendation https://www.w3.org/TR/pointerevents3/ 15:04:41 Patrick: for those who haven't seen already, PE3 is now in CR. spoke to Philippe and asked about WPTs and whether we need everything passing in 2 implementations, or if it's on a per test basis. 15:04:57 Patrick: Need 2 implementations per test 15:05:24 Patrick: to then exit CR we need 2 implementations for each test. implementation report just pointing to WPT results 15:05:34 PLH: spec is now back on automatic publishing as well 15:06:07 Olli: luckily PE is part of interop 2025, so some of the tests/implementations will get fixed now 15:06:19 TOPIC: PointerEvents as living standard https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/471#issuecomment-2847190233 15:11:43 [discussion on the challenges of living standard, and the editing overhead / how it makes specs unreadable, and other options] 15:12:30 Patrick: so any preference? I'm happy with NOT having too much editing overhead, happy to keep the regular model we've been doing 15:12:54 Rob: one thing I would suggest is clearly marking things that are at risk 15:13:42 PLH: that is also supported in bikeshed (?). but suggest we work on the tip, and then once we have 2 implementations for a set of new features, we cut that to a Level 4 15:13:58 Rob: one issue we also have is making changes to existing/previous issues 15:14:14 PLH: which is why, as you may have seen, we deprecated older versions 15:14:36 Mustaq: is there a way to version WPTs? to make clear when a test is for 2, or 3, ... 15:15:08 PLH: my recommendation is to always have WPT refer to the latest tip. not split by levels 15:15:42 PLH: if we need to, we can make a separate list of which WPTs are a sublist for a particular version 15:15:56 Olli: just checked MDN, it points to editors' draft 15:16:08 PLH: and editor draft is always the tip 15:16:33 PLH: and TR/pointerevents goes to the tip 15:16:46 PLH: versioned URLs become historical artifacts more than anything else 15:18:19 Patrick: is there a cutoff point now that we're in CR when we need all WPTs green? 15:18:34 PLH: in next 20 years ... but seriously, not maximum 15:19:11 Patrick: suggest we push to get these supported soon though, so we don't drag this on forever in CR 15:19:38 PLH: we may also need to see which WPTs we care for. example of touch-action with more than one value, seems Gecko doesn't support it, only blink 15:19:47 Olli: think there's also issues in WPT runners themselves 15:20:08 PLH: and that's ok. if we can come up with an explanation of why a test is red, that's ok 15:20:57 PLH: but yes, decide which WPTs do we care about, and then check if they fail because WPT is limited, or if there's a real lack of implementation, and if the latter, do we push for it 15:21:29 PLH: also, do we have full test coverage? 15:21:57 Olli: think so. Masayuki has found a lot of edge cases and filed new tests/implemented things in Gecko 15:22:09 Rob: WPT tests also have issues with coalesced etc. tests 15:22:17 PLH: so we may need to do manual test... 15:22:53 PLH: we need to compile a list of how tests *can* be run, do they need manual tests, are there some things that realistically *can't* even test 15:23:10 PLH: example of what may not be testable is how a pointerId gets assigned 15:23:19 Rob: there are also things that you need particular hardware for 15:23:27 Rob: such as detailed properties for pens 15:24:18 PLH: maybe then taking the list of changes, then check that each change (PE2 > PE3) has test, and note if there are gaps for testing (test needs to run manually, can't be tested, etc) 15:25:08 PLH: if we conclude that for some features we won't have sufficient implementation, we can then still remove them from level 3 and defer them to level 4 15:25:37 PLH: want me to make a first pass at this? 15:25:47 Patrick: if you have time/inclination, i'd very much appreciate it, thank you 15:25:57 PLH: might do separate markdown file and link from issue 15:26:28 ACTION: PLH to make first run at compiling list of new features, related WPTs, and any gaps in tests/implementations 15:26:49 TOPIC: Meta-issue: update WPT to cover Pointer Events Level 3 https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/445 / https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues?q=label%3Aneeds-wpt+ 15:28:00 Patrick: unless I forgot to take labels off, it looks like we have 3 that still need wpt. how are they doing? 15:29:26 Adam: I worked on https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/513 which now seems to have been merged 15:29:40 Patrick: thank you, removing needs-wpt label 15:30:05 Patrick: so we have https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/534 left... 15:30:28 Mustaq: i meant to do a test, will look at it 15:30:36 ACTION: Mustaq to look at test for #534 15:31:16 Patrick: and the last one https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/509 15:31:31 Olli: Masayuki was away last few days, will ask him if he can write a test 15:31:44 ACTION: Olli to ask Masayuki about test for #509 15:34:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-pointerevents-minutes.html plh 15:37:09 TOPIC: https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/542 15:37:56 Mustaq: idea we had - if you can tie it to click event, identify if it's a stable click or a "drifting" click. from a web platform perspective 15:38:58 Patrick: that reminds me from old touch events tests i used to do, distinction between a "dirty" tap and a "clean"tap, and only the latter would also fire click 15:39:35 Mustaq: if you know of any other spec/issue that could be helped by this idea of drifting/dirty click, add to the issue 15:40:18 Mustaq: doing "slop detection" from basic principles, or if this could be helped via UA 15:40:42 Olli: need to be careful that we don't implement some magical property that then works differently based on different heuristics 16:03:18 TOPIC: TPAC 2025 16:04:51 Patrick: still early days, but start planning/thinking if you'll be in person at TPAC (november in Kobe, Japan). we have until 20 June to book slot for group session/joint sessions. For latter, was thinking perhaps trying to sit down with either i18n or csswg for the logical touch-action values. Anyway, not putting people on spot right now, but start considering 16:05:05 Olli: I will likely be there 16:05:47 Patrick: if there's no other topics, we'll keep it short-ish. Thank you all, we meet again in 2 weeks' time 16:05:53 RRSAgent, set logs world-visible 16:06:01 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:06:02 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-pointerevents-minutes.html Patrick_H_Lauke 16:06:17 rrsagent, bye 16:06:17 I see 3 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-pointerevents-actions.rdf : 16:06:17 ACTION: PLH to make first run at compiling list of new features, related WPTs, and any gaps in tests/implementations [1] 16:06:17 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-pointerevents-irc#T15-26-28 16:06:17 ACTION: Mustaq to look at test for #534 [2] 16:06:17 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-pointerevents-irc#T15-30-36 16:06:17 ACTION: Olli to ask Masayuki about test for #509 [3] 16:06:17 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-pointerevents-irc#T15-31-44