12:58:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:58:25 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-matf-irc
12:58:25 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:58:26 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:58:27 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 7 May 2025
12:58:28 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:58:31 <JJ> Meeting: 7 May 2025
12:58:36 <JJ> chair+
12:58:51 <JJ> regrets+ qbalsdon
12:58:56 <JJ> regrets+ JeroenHulscher
12:58:59 <JJ> regrets + hdv
12:59:26 <Joe_Humbert> present+
12:59:34 <JJ> agenda+ 1.3.1 - Info and Relationships
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12:59:39 <JJ> agenda+ 1.3.5 - Identify Input Purpose
12:59:45 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.4 - Resize Text
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13:03:34 <Jon_Gibbins> present+
13:03:45 <Tanya> present+
13:04:07 <JJ> WCAG2Mobile has been published: https://www.w3.org/news/2025/draft-note-for-review-guidance-on-applying-wcag-2-2-to-mobile-applications-wcag2mobile/
13:04:15 <JJ> Document: https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2mobile-22/
13:04:39 <Illai> present+
13:04:58 <Tim> Tim has joined #matf
13:05:05 <JJ> scribe: Joe_Humbert
13:05:10 <Tim> present+
13:05:16 <rachaely> present+
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13:06:20 <Carol> present+
13:06:32 <Joe_Humbert> next agendum
13:06:32 <julianmka> present+
13:06:34 <Jon_Gibbins> Sorry folks, my Internet connection seems too unstable to join today.
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13:06:49 <Jon_Gibbins> present-
13:06:56 <Aash> present+
13:07:04 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:07:37 <Joe_Humbert> JJ discussing the current language and previous discussions and comments about this SC from github an previous meetings
13:07:48 <Illai> q+
13:07:51 <JJ> ack Illai
13:07:52 <Jamie> q+
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13:08:27 <pauljadam> iOS has heading levels but not Android (yet)
13:08:28 <Aash> +1 to Illai
13:08:57 <rachaely> +1 to Paul
13:08:57 <Jamie> +1 pauljadam
13:08:59 <Joe_Humbert> Illai brings up the topic of heading levels and the issues were some OSes do not support heading levels. How do we hand this
13:09:34 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:09:42 <Joe_Humbert> JJ suggested an action to develop a note about heading levels and the associated research
13:10:21 <JJ> ACTION: Add Note about heading levels as part of 1.3.1
13:10:40 <Joe_Humbert> Jamie asked if relationships need to be conveyed programmatic give the current capabilities of the OSes and AT
13:10:44 <rachaely> q+
13:10:53 <Illai> +1 Jamie
13:10:53 <JJ> ack rachaely
13:11:28 <Detlev> present+
13:11:52 <JJ> Tables? Table headings?
13:11:58 <Joe_Humbert> rachaely in regards to Jamie comment about possibly shimmying it it., It may be possible to do this for headings by adding it to the accessible name
13:12:20 <Joe_Humbert> Jamie said the she meant more relationships than just headings
13:12:38 <Joe_Humbert> rachaely asked for examples of what Jamie meant
13:12:42 <JJ> indicating modals?
13:12:53 <Detlev> q+
13:12:53 <JJ> marking containers
13:13:29 <Illai> q+
13:13:55 <Illai> q-
13:14:41 <Joe_Humbert> Jamie gave the example of inline dialogs and also the ser experience when large chnks of content are added or removed.  Are accessible names adjustments needed to communicate this information.
13:14:55 <Illai> q+
13:15:43 <Joe_Humbert> JJ gave descriptions of different types of relationship and structure that may need to be commnicated
13:15:53 <Tanya> q+
13:16:08 <JJ> ack Detlev
13:16:20 <Joe_Humbert> Jamie asked if missing information would be a best practice vs failre
13:16:35 <JJ> JJ: Examples would be tables, table headers, table rows, table columns, marking containers, indicating modals, etc. that exist on mobile but are more difficult to mark up in the accessibility tree
13:16:50 <julianmka> q+
13:17:02 <rachaely> q+ to in my opinion, we can't fail something that developers don't have a way to implement natively. my recommendation would be a best practice for that scenario
13:17:21 <julianmka> q-
13:17:26 <Joe_Humbert> Detlev discussed how many of these requirements were created based on content heavy webpages as opposed to mobile where their may be significantly less content in a "view"
13:18:00 <rachaely> +1 to Detlev
13:18:12 <JJ> q+ to add that we might need to add a list of capabilities on Android/iOS in regards to marking up information and relationships in a note?
13:18:13 <julianmka> +1 to Detlev
13:18:17 <Joe_Humbert> Detlev would this semantic information be helpful to the user
13:18:51 <JJ> ack Illai
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13:20:49 <Joe_Humbert> Illai has concerns about the relationship part of the SC in relation to custom/composite elements. The mobile OSes lack some of the attributes to communicate this information or the generally accepted techniques. Mentions different ARIA attributes like aria-controls
13:21:27 <Jamie> q+
13:22:26 <Illai> BTW I am not saying not fail for it' we should probably not allow it at all
13:22:35 <pauljadam> on iOS you have .accessibilityLabel which works the same as aria-label, you can copy how aria-labelledby works using a variable to hold the string you want to set as the label, that's how you would make a <label> too but it does not set focus to the input when you tap it
13:22:43 <JJ> ack Tanya
13:23:02 <Joe_Humbert> JJ says definitions in our Note and possibly mapping attributes from different platforms.,  Acknowledging that people on the call are leaning to be lenient and not failing. This requires people to state up to date on OS support
13:23:53 <JJ> regrets+ JonGibbins
13:23:58 <JJ> regrets+ Karla
13:24:12 <Detlev> +1 for not making exceptions for dev platforms that don't support semantics available in native development
13:25:19 <JJ> Android 16 will get native expand/collapse states + labelled by multiple elements -> https://developer.android.com/about/versions/16/features#a11y-apis
13:26:28 <Joe_Humbert> Tanya is worried about requests for exceptions. End users do not care about native IOS/Android or cross-platform frameworks. We need to this about how we treat different platforms.  Contextual context for users can help.  Tanya gave examples of banking apps and example of rejections/failures for things like missing table semantics
13:27:15 <Jamie> q
13:27:24 <Jamie> q+
13:28:01 <JJ> ack rachaely
13:28:01 <Zakim> rachaely, you wanted to in my opinion, we can't fail something that developers don't have a way to implement natively. my recommendation would be a best practice for that scenario
13:28:13 <Joe_Humbert> JJ we need to look at where interactions might not pass and platform capabilities
13:29:09 <pauljadam> most a11y user research studies are not published
13:29:28 <Joe_Humbert> rachaely back to Jamie comments. We should not fail if developer cannot add the required attributes. Has there been user research that could help inform this discussion?
13:29:46 <JJ> ack JJ
13:29:46 <Zakim> JJ, you wanted to add that we might need to add a list of capabilities on Android/iOS in regards to marking up information and relationships in a note?
13:30:05 <pauljadam> I've created prototypes for headings user research on iOS and the users preferred headings which is not surprising and they were fine with heading levels.
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13:31:19 <rachaely> +1 to maintaining capabilities list
13:31:34 <JJ> q?
13:31:37 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:31:42 <Joe_Humbert> JJ Not aware of research. 1.3.,1 is beneficial to screen reader users but it is also about Perceivable and visual information. Worried about our guidance if this change.  Most OSes only get major updates once a year
13:32:33 <JJ> q+ to mention how to deal with native elements that might not pass 1.3.1 requirements, but could be enhanced with a11y API's
13:32:37 <pauljadam> I would keep these guidelines more generic so that you don't have to list out every a11y API that is supported and not supported and then update that over time as the OS' improve.
13:33:45 <Joe_Humbert> Jamie good way to think about this is "What is the current state". Feels there will need to be multiple notes and compromises in this group. points out that the SC mentions "programmatic or are available in text"
13:34:34 <JJ> ack JJ
13:34:34 <Zakim> JJ, you wanted to mention how to deal with native elements that might not pass 1.3.1 requirements, but could be enhanced with a11y API's
13:34:49 <Joe_Humbert> Jamie concerned that if it is not native available are we (and users) missing out
13:36:09 <pauljadam> A visual user probably does not even know how many rows are on a scrolling list of rows, not sure a screen reader user needs to know how many either.
13:36:18 <julianmka> q+
13:36:35 <Joe_Humbert> JJ discussing how we deal with non-conformance of native elements. Gives examples of android set size and index versus iOS were that information is less common. Is it reasonable to require developers to add what is not available natively
13:36:54 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:37:07 <Joe_Humbert> JJ also where platform has support, but not individual elements
13:38:18 <pauljadam> They would be able to do 3 finger scroll to move page by page, not required to swipe element by element
13:38:51 <Joe_Humbert> julianmka native information not supported, but useful to users may be a good place for best practices. Describing non-visual user vs sighted user navigating row-based content on mobile
13:39:29 <rachaely> +1 to hints, i was thinking of this earlier, but forgot to mention it
13:39:36 <julianmka> Agreed on hints
13:39:37 <pauljadam> WCAG would not expect a developer to add "2 of 6" type index announcements to a11y Hints.
13:40:06 <rachaely> pauljadam i'd recommends hints as a best practice
13:40:27 <pauljadam> That would be like expecting and android developer to hack on a "Heading Level 2" hint
13:40:37 <Joe_Humbert> JJ acknowledges that these are good ideas but worries about both empowering users, but also avoiding overload., Mentions the use of hints. Talks about order of attributes and how this impacts users or goes against user preferences
13:41:21 <JJ> q?
13:41:29 <Jamie> q+
13:41:30 <pauljadam> If you want a heading to speak its level or a list of rows to speak index numbers you need to file bug reports with Apple and Google and they would have to make that happen.
13:41:36 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:42:26 <Joe_Humbert> Jamie Strong opinions about the "available in text" part of the SC?
13:42:59 <Joe_Humbert> The more programmatic the better to support user choice and preference
13:43:01 <JJ> q+ to emphasize its mostly important for people coming from web to understand the limitations and possibilities for mobile apps
13:43:51 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:43:59 <JJ> ack JJ
13:43:59 <Zakim> JJ, you wanted to emphasize its mostly important for people coming from web to understand the limitations and possibilities for mobile apps
13:45:25 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:45:48 <Jamie> "possible" with customizations... or "expected" from native components?
13:46:12 <JJ> ACTION: Figure out what the capabilities and limitations of Android and iOS are related to 1.3.1
13:46:21 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: Need to get agreement on minimum requirements - heading levels, tables, descriptions?
13:46:28 <Jamie> +1 Joe_Humbert
13:46:36 <JJ> ACTION: Do we need an exception for native elements / native patterns?
13:46:43 <Detlev> ...how do push Apple etc. to add semanticas that are currently missing?
13:46:47 <pauljadam> Apple would tell you to file a Feedback Assistant Bug Report where it goes to disappear into the void
13:47:04 <Jamie> +1 and +1
13:47:06 <Detlev> ...now Android has native expand/collaps
13:47:31 <Joe_Humbert> thank Detlev
13:47:34 <JJ> q?
13:47:54 <Jamie> q+
13:48:30 <Illai> q+
13:49:10 <pauljadam> If you're asking my opinion I would remove the "or are available in text" part :)
13:49:22 <Joe_Humbert> the group may need to come to a consensus on what minimum attributes and properties are needed for conformance. If some of these are missing how do we get companies (Google/Apple) to add the missing attributes and properties so that can be implemented by developers
13:49:25 <JJ> Poll: Apply 1.3.1 directly as written, only adding notes?
13:49:36 <Jamie> 0
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13:50:07 <Joe_Humbert> Jamie How do we feel about the current text of the SC? Do we need to make changes or is in good as is
13:50:24 <rachaely> +1
13:50:27 <julianmka> +1
13:50:28 <Tim> +1
13:50:31 <Tanya> +1
13:50:57 <Aash> +1 (with notes)
13:50:58 <Jamie> 0
13:50:59 <Illai> -1
13:51:03 <Carol> +1
13:51:05 <Joe_Humbert> +1 for as written agree with Jamie about need for notes
13:51:05 <pauljadam> "or are available in text" seems too vague and confusing on how to apply, or it seems like it's more for plain-text note pad type documents and not web content.
13:51:16 <Detlev> 0 removing "available in text" could make sense but would deviate from WCAG - and may nit do much harm?
13:51:16 <Carol> agree with Jaime about the notes
13:51:32 <julianmka> also on board with notes
13:51:38 <pauljadam> I'm not sure if we're actually allowed to remove things :)
13:52:46 <Jamie> pauljadam the point of the MATF is to provide guidance on accepting "as written" or vary from the SC
13:52:56 <Joe_Humbert> Illai feels that this SC is to vague and general (even for web). Taking it as is may not help users in the way this SC was intended
13:53:33 <JJ> q?
13:53:47 <Joe_Humbert> JJ acknowledges we can modify SC is small ways, but notes can help do more
13:54:01 <JJ> ack Illai
13:54:08 <Detlev> would adding a heading level as hint count as "are available in text"?
13:54:20 <JJ> q+ Detlev to respond to 0 vote
13:54:45 <pauljadam> Does the text have to be visible text?
13:55:17 <Joe_Humbert> Jamie The wording may be limiting the groups thinking/work. Acknowledges that there is a lot of variance from company to company on what passes fails this SC for both mobile and web
13:55:58 <Detlev> q+
13:56:19 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:56:19 <Joe_Humbert> addressing pauljadam because this is in Precievable I would say Yes it needs to be visible to provide access to more users
13:56:42 <JJ> Zakim, close the queue
13:56:42 <Zakim> ok, JJ, the speaker queue is closed
13:56:56 <Joe_Humbert> Jamie is worried about being to specific versus too general
13:56:59 <pauljadam> I figured that "text" means text everyone can see
13:57:31 <JJ> ack Detlev
13:57:31 <Zakim> Detlev, you wanted to respond to 0 vote and to
13:58:14 <Joe_Humbert> JJ thinks we need to do something to help developers meet this SC
13:59:01 <Jamie> Joe_Humbert not worried per se, more that we need to be more explicit in our. version and possibly define / redefine the definitions
13:59:13 <pauljadam> A simple table could be grouped as one single focused element then you would not need to hack on the row and column header announcements.
14:00:00 <Joe_Humbert> Detlev describing why he gave a 0. He is not sure what is better to be to more detailed or more general. Really need to consider how are guidance is helping users
14:00:39 <Joe_Humbert> JJ will add more actions if some were missed. share out the draft publicxation
14:00:41 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:00:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:01:21 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:01:21 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 1.3.5 - Identify Input Purpose -- taken up [from JJ]
14:01:54 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:01:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:03:25 <JJ> agenda-
14:03:32 <JJ> delete agendum 3
14:03:34 <JJ> delete agendum 2
14:04:02 <JJ> agenda 1 = 1.3.1 Info and Relationships
14:04:06 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:04:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:04:40 <JJ> current agendum?
14:04:53 <JJ> take up agendum 1
14:05:00 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:05:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:06:30 <JJ> Note: agendum 1.3.1 Info and Relationships is shown above
14:06:33 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:06:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:06:52 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
14:06:52 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-matf-actions.rdf :
14:06:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Add Note about heading levels as part of 1.3.1 [1]
14:06:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-matf-irc#T13-10-21
14:06:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Figure out what the capabilities and limitations of Android and iOS are related to 1.3.1 [2]
14:06:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-matf-irc#T13-46-12
14:06:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Do we need an exception for native elements / native patterns? [3]
14:06:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-matf-irc#T13-46-36