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16:52:51 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:52:52 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King
16:53:12 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group
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17:02:29 <jugglinmike> Zakim, start the meeting
17:02:29 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:02:30 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
17:02:35 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
17:02:36 <mmoss> present+
17:02:37 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
17:03:00 <ChrisCuellar> present+
17:03:05 <jugglinmike> meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly
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17:03:38 <howard-e> present+
17:03:52 <mfairchild> regrets for today
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17:04:09 <jugglinmike> present+ Carmen
17:04:14 <jugglinmike> present+ james
17:05:23 <jugglinmike> Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
17:05:25 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/wiki/May-7%2C-2025-Agenda
17:06:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Requests for changes to agenda?
17:06:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with the agenda as planned
17:06:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We may want to cancel next week's meeting
17:07:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The way the outlook appears right now, we won't have new stuff for the test queue this week. That will all be available the following week
17:07:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So we might be able to save people some time by not having a meeting next week
17:07:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Does anybody anticipate anything that I'm not anticipating that suggests we should meet next week?
17:08:00 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
17:08:06 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Not from our side, I don't think
17:08:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay. I'll make a decision based on how things are looking after Monday's meeting with PAC
17:08:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And also based on anything else that may turn up
17:08:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Following Community Group Meeting would be: Wednesday May 21
17:08:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday May 12
17:09:03 <jugglinmike> Topic: Current status
17:09:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have three things in draft review, but they're all held up by one thing or another
17:09:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll talk about radio group when we talk about arrow keys and NVDA later on in this meeting
17:09:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Vertical temperature slider has incoming changes which may be done by the end of the month
17:10:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: As for the disclosure navigation: we could re-evaluate and push it on through, but it's kind of a waste of time when we know at least (at a minimum) are coming to JAWS
17:10:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We've learned that those changes in JAWS won't be available in the May release, but instead in the July release
17:10:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: As for what's coming next
17:11:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: James and IsaDC and I keep running into a variety of problems which make some options untenable at the current moment
17:12:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: IsaDC is planning to get the work on according done by the end of next week
17:12:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The next three that I have listed here were all scheduled to get done in April or May, but they all ran into strange problems
17:13:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There isn't clarity in the HTML AAM about how screen readers should handle lists made with dl/dt elements.
17:13:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But it's not really necessary to use that specific structure in the APG, so James is going to raise an issue in the next few days about that
17:14:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The image description one is even messier because we actually don't know what screen reader expectations ought to be for figures (especially for labeling figures)
17:14:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I have an action item to file an issue against HTML AAM or maybe even accname
17:14:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But the uncertainty there may delay this work for a really long time
17:15:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In summary, those are the kinds of technicalities which are delaying the upcoming work
17:15:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But it will be accordion next, and the spreadsheet shows what will follow that (I believe it's going to be the spin button)
17:15:45 <jugglinmike> Topic: Re-run of JAWS for color viewer slider
17:16:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I re-tested this with not the exact same build that Hadi was using, but with a beta build that followed Hadi's. Brett assured me that there were no relevant changes between these releases. My results matched Joe's results and not Hadi's results
17:17:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I have a feeling this was just a copy-and-paste error on Hadi's part
17:17:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Can you e-mail Hadi, IsaDC?
17:17:44 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Sure
17:18:00 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Were they running the same version?
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17:18:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: No, Joe was running the March version and Hadi was running the April version. I believe that's what we determined from the meeting minutes, anyway
17:19:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think this is going to be a fast fix. Once that's done, we can just push this
17:19:16 <jugglinmike> Topic: Arrow keys in NVDA test plans
17:20:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There is a setting in NVDA that is enabled by default. When things are visually on the same line, the arrow key will put a whole bunch of elements (in this case, 5 radio buttons) on the same line, so that the arrow key doesn't semantically separate them; it just reads them all at once
17:20:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's different from how both JAWS and VoiceOver work by default
17:20:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This has consequences for the rating radio group
17:21:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I went back and looked at what we did for the other two radio groups, and it's quite interesting that we did use "insert + up arrow" for requesting information, but we left the arrow keys out for the "browse mode" testing for navigating from one radio group button to another
17:21:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm not sure why that is
17:22:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Then I started thinking about this and kind of wondering: would the community group be aligned with expecting NVDA to by default NOT combining these things? This is about conveying semantics and not about conveying visual information
17:22:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It doesn't feel like an inconsistency that we want to support
17:23:12 <jugglinmike> James: I think the screen layout setting in NVDA is not a faithful representation of what's on the screen. There are cases where some things are on the same line, but NVDA will not convey them as such. I think there are inconsistencies and limitations from what they can get from the browser
17:23:21 <jugglinmike> James: The setting is intended to convey things on the same line
17:23:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm saying that for that to be the default behavior--so it gives a different semantic behavior by default
17:24:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In some cases, the arrow key can move you to a specific radio button in a radio group, but in other cases, it cannot
17:24:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Both cases are semantically equivalent; the difference between those cases depends only on the CSS
17:24:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It either means we have to tell people (e.g. testers), "never use the arrow key". But real-life user do!
17:25:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: ...Or, we could possibly say to NVAccess: "fix the interoperability bugs that we're finding by changing the default value of this setting""
17:25:54 <jugglinmike> James: The aim of the setting is not to change the semantics but to change how the controls are conveyed
17:26:17 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: It's for the navigation--how you move through the buttons. You can't do it with the arrow keys
17:26:38 <jugglinmike> James: I think the default is terrible, and so did all the folks who responded to my informal Twitter poll
17:26:46 <jugglinmike> James: That's just my opinion, though
17:27:14 <jugglinmike> James: I can't pick out all the information--that's why I dislike the setting
17:27:36 <jugglinmike> James: I agree from a cognitive perspective. But that isn't semantic; it's just a subjective opinions
17:27:54 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: This concerns the tests for navigate to next and previous radio button, right?
17:27:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yes
17:29:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In one case, you get one button, and in another case, you get a bunch of buttons, and so the way the command is behaving, by default, is giving you a completely different amount of--I guess you can distinguish, if you listen closely, you may be able to differentiate the radio button labels
17:29:49 <jugglinmike> James: We have discussed a number of cases where there is a fine line between objectivity and opinion. And we agree that we're not trying to change the screen readers' decisions about how they present information, as long as they convey that information.
17:30:22 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: What is the output we seek from this issue?
17:30:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Essentially, we don't know when it's okay to test with the arrow keys and when it's not
17:31:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: What we're currently telling the world is that the commands you can use for this pattern vary based on visual presentation. So the commands end up based not on the pattern but on the visual presentation of the pattern
17:31:40 <jugglinmike> James: In that informal poll I conducted, respondents offered a bunch of work arounds
17:32:26 <jugglinmike> James: The APG could make a vertical radio button example
17:32:49 <jugglinmike> James: It feels like we're overstepping the mark, even though we all agree that the default behavior is not good
17:33:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's exactly my question: would we be overstepping the mark on this case?
17:33:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And I'm hearing that you think it's better to not test with the arrow keys for NVDA
17:33:27 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Do we have other exceptions like this?
17:33:35 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: For other screen readers, that is
17:33:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: None come to mind
17:33:58 <jugglinmike> James: For JAWS, we almost always add an extra arrow key press because it adds inline "fake" text
17:34:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We do that for VoiceOver, as well. NVDA is the outlier in that case
17:34:19 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I think testing the arrow keys would bring more issues
17:35:18 <jugglinmike> James: If we test this and fail NVDA, I think we're going to get push back from NVAccess or elsewhere that essentially, "it didn't fail but it just didn't act the way you wanted"
17:36:04 <jugglinmike> present+ Louis
17:36:13 <jugglinmike> Louis: I agree with James
17:37:40 <jugglinmike> James: It became apparent from NVAccess (because Jamie Teh replied) that they don't have access to data for how users change settings
17:38:06 <jugglinmike> James: I do think that a company like Vispero will think about this a lot more--they have the resources to do so, and they have more avenues for structured feedback, etc
17:38:31 <jugglinmike> James: I think that's a shame because whenever I've tried to get people using NVDA who are more comfortable with JAWS, there are defaults which trip them up
17:38:58 <jugglinmike> James: I think, realistically, NVAccess will just tell us, "it's only one keystroke for users to turn this off"
17:39:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm hearing that it is an overreach for us to weigh in on this particular behavior
17:39:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I agree that ARIA-AT isn't always the way to push for change
17:39:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But we should still be consistent within ARIA-AT
17:40:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We tested with "insert + up arrow" on another test plan, but that's only due to luck
17:40:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm wondering: for consistency within the tests, even if "insert + up arrow" happens to work in some tests, should we include that command?
17:40:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Or should we use the same commands across all radio group test plans?
17:41:17 <jugglinmike> James: All three radio group test plans in the APG put the radio groups on the same line
17:41:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I just ran through them last night, and the pizza crust ones, for example, were putting them on separate lines
17:41:51 <jugglinmike> James: The best way to test NVDA with defaults is to make a portable version
17:42:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Henceforth, I will always use a portable NVDA. Is that really the fastest way?
17:43:16 <jugglinmike> James: You can also rename your NVDA folder in your AppData folder and restart it
17:44:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: How did people get the "insert + up arrow" results that they got for radio button activedescendent?
17:45:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The output that people recorded was not the options. Does that mean they weren't using the defaults?
17:45:38 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I was using the dafaults
17:45:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Oh, but that was bot output!
17:45:57 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I always double-check the bot output
17:46:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm questioning all the NVDA research I did last night
17:47:16 <jugglinmike> James: I wonder if they act differently in the APG than they do in ARIA-AT
17:47:22 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: They shouldn't
17:47:49 <jugglinmike> James: they all work the same for me with the absolute defaults (I haven't even changed the synthesizer). Even in the APG
17:48:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Then our reports are wrong
17:48:31 <jugglinmike> James: the only thing I can see changing that is if the browser window was too small
17:48:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Sometimes the setup script doesn't work correctly if the window is too small
17:49:08 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: My concern in that case is for the other two
17:49:26 <jugglinmike> James: I can't make those appear on separately lines by zooming in, either
17:49:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we're going to remove "up", "down", and "insert+up" from all these test plans
17:50:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But now, I'm very concerned about how we got the results that we got
17:50:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: My only theory is that the bot reported incorrect responses and that no one corrected it
17:50:45 <jugglinmike> James: It is possible that the bot was in the wrong mode
17:50:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yes, because focus mode would change the "insert + up" behavior
17:51:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But I was getting blank responses when I was in focus mode
17:52:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, this turned out to be much more complicated than I expected!
17:52:37 <jugglinmike> James: I'll share a link to the issue I filed against NVDA
17:52:44 <ChrisCuellar> James: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/15159
17:53:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Do we re-run the test plans first? Or do we change them, first?
17:53:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Let's go with the active descendant. Add the current version of the test plan to the queue, run it with a bot, and let's have a human go through it to determine if it is giving correct output. Let's make sure that whatever human reviews it is truly using defaults (allowing only changes to speech rate change)
17:56:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Make sure we're using the latest NVDA with defaults
17:56:16 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: The NVDA bot is using version 2024.4.1
17:56:26 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: https://github.com/bocoup/aria-at-automation-nvda-builds/releases/tag/2024.4.1
17:56:33 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I am using 2024.4.2
17:56:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know if or how much that will matter
17:56:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll run it with the bot and just see what it does
17:57:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: this could also be due to a mode problem as James suggested earlier
17:57:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We can dig in if we see a discrepancy
17:58:16 <jugglinmike> Topic: Arrow keys in NVDA test plans
17:58:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're just about out of time
17:58:32 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: It's okay, this isn't urgent
17:59:28 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: We are running the tests in automation over and over again to detect ways that the automation system is inconsistent
17:59:50 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: In that process, we identified an inconsistency that we could reproduce manually
18:00:01 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: And it's not clear how we should handle that
18:00:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Oh, that's interesting
18:00:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Let's plan to talk about it next time
18:00:18 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: Sounds good!
18:00:34 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
18:00:34 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, mmoss, ChrisCuellar, howard-e, Carmen, james, IsaDC, Louis
18:00:36 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:00:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/07-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
18:00:44 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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