Inline Ruby Demo

08:03:35 RRSAgent has joined #adapt 08:03:39 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/05/06-adapt-irc 08:03:39 RRSAgent, make logs Public 08:03:40 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), kevin 08:03:45 Lionel_Wolberger has joined #Adapt 08:03:51 Meeting: Symbols Workshop (day 2) 08:03:56 zakim, who is here? 08:03:56 Present: (no one) 08:03:58 On IRC I see Lionel_Wolberger, RRSAgent, Zakim, Lisa, kevin, Roy_Ruoxi, janina, hadleybeeman, gb 08:04:00 present+ 08:04:03 scribe+ 08:04:20 chair: matatk 08:04:20 matatk has joined #adapt 08:04:26 present+ 08:05:26 present+ 08:12:41 Annalu has joined #adapt 08:12:55 present+ 08:13:55 scribe+ 08:14:09 matatk: Summarises work from yesterday 08:14:30 ... Plan for today; recap document status and outline what is required 08:14:42 ... Planning communications and reviewing matrix 08:14:52 ... Session later with symbols expert 08:15:25 ... More matrix work time later which might not be required. Time could be used for Explainer or Examples 08:16:01 ... For the Explainer we explored what was needed yesterday - it is more than tweaks so may be better done out of meeting 08:16:10 rrsagent, make minutes 08:16:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/06-adapt-minutes.html kevin 08:16:31 ... We could also split up into groups to work on separate topics 08:17:18 ... Also, what else is required, for example updating the Registry document 08:19:39 Lisa: Would be good to look at worked mock ups and examples 08:19:52 janina1 has joined #adapt 08:20:00 ... This will be required later when going through CR 08:21:09 matatk: Lisa, there is a page on the wiki where Russell discussed issues he faced when making a font 08:21:21 https://github.com/w3c/adapt/wiki/Symbols-implementation-tests 08:21:43 ... This would be helpful as a NOTE track document and this would be the basis for such a thing 08:22:33 ... Mock ups is important. There are other examples form the demo authoring tool. 08:22:55 Q+ 08:22:58 ... Annalu also suggested having some real world examples 08:23:40 janina: Could use the WAI homepage 08:23:59 janina2 has joined #adapt 08:26:03 Lisa: It would be good to outline what materials are going to be delivered so people have advanced notice 08:26:04 present+ 08:26:07 rrsagent, make minutes 08:26:09 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/06-adapt-minutes.html matatk 08:26:48 need to step away (physiotherapy) 08:28:25 i|Lisa: Would be good to look at worked mock ups and examples|Topic: Document statuses and needs| 08:28:33 rrsagent, make minutes 08:28:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/06-adapt-minutes.html kevin 08:31:21 kevin: Could use the WAI website for some of the narrative description 08:31:41 matatk: Could have something in WAI website that directs people to the right information 08:32:03 ... Official document in TR space and WAI website can provide a more filtered view 08:32:48 kevin: That is worth exploring further 08:33:08 matatk: Lionel could you look at the 'shop window' material and see what needs changed 08:33:23 Lionel_Wolberger: Immediate goals is to prepare for our two meetings today 08:33:34 ... Explainer may help with those? 08:34:19 matatk: I think largely we are prepared for the meeting today. The work on the matrix has been shared with folks 08:34:50 ... Others involved are aware of the history so may not need much more upfront information to be presented 08:35:06 janina2: It might be worth exploring what objections might be raised 08:35:49 matatk: We should formalise how we are using the time later today 08:37:03 Lionel_Wolberger: I think it is worth spending some time working out our responses to those objections 08:37:25 ... Would also be worth exploring language 08:37:54 kevin: Worth doing first draft of glossary 08:38:52 matatk: Between 1 and 3 - spend hour digesting information from EA, 30mins @@@ and 30mins working on glossary. 08:39:26 Lionel_Wolberger: We also determined that you can have multiple 's presented horizantally 08:41:25 s/@@@/Planning further communications/ 08:43:32 Lionel_Wolberger: If an author chooses to add a symbol to a page. There is a subtlety in the order of events: the author will chose a symbol and then think of the concept? 08:43:51 matatk: The authoring tool could/should be suggesting symbols for concepts in page 08:44:10 janina2: What we need to avoid is people using aesthetics to chose for a symbol 08:44:49 Lionel_Wolberger: So the subtlety is that people are choosing symbols with string identifiers of the concepts. Is the string a Unicode code point? 08:45:03 matatk: As in the thing that goes into the markup? 08:45:41 scribe+ 08:45:44 Lionel_Wolberger: Yes 08:45:47 Lionel_Wolberger: Yes. So that Unicode code point I can look up in the Adapt Symbol Registry maintained by W3C as a normative source of concept code points in the Authorized Vocabulary 08:46:21 ... I am going to consume and render that page. I use a browser that has the symbol and a code point on the page 08:46:45 matatk: No. A Unicode code point is just a number. It isn't rendered. 08:47:06 Lionel_Wolberger: But when I authored I chose a symbol and a code point? 08:47:31 matatk: The authoring tool at minimum might just give a text concept which might not even show the symbol itself. 08:47:45 ... Users with Bliss font would then see their associated symbol 08:48:19 Annalu: If you have a font and you type a word and you change the font - you may get jibberish unless you change it to a Latin font in which you just get a different script. 08:48:33 ... What we are looking to do is have the same symbols when we change the font 08:49:00 janina2: I think what we need to ensure is communicated is that the author is not choosing the symbol to use, just the concept 08:49:29 Lionel_Wolberger: Currently, I wish to decorate a sentence with a symbol. I choose a symbol based on what I think will visually work. 08:50:06 ... What we are saying is that we are now saying that chosen pictograms are not to be defined by the author 08:50:37 janina2: This is not personal expression like emojis. This is expressing a concept in the users perspective. 08:52:33 Lionel_Wolberger: I think that the author is also selecting the symbol 08:52:49 matatk: They might be in practice but people shouldn't be doing this 08:53:02 Lionel_Wolberger: That is a big change from how people are currently doing this? 08:53:48 janina2: The reason we will have to explain to authors is that we will be more about identifying symbols that are part of a 'language' 08:54:01 matatk: We can replace with discussion on this later 08:54:27 ... Note that I don't think this is an issue for any of our experts 08:55:29 Lionel_Wolberger: To give an example, I have written something about it being sunny today and I write the Hebrew symbols for sunny. When I type these on my keyboard it types the right code point for this charatcer 08:56:03 ... This code point is then rendered appropriately across all devices. I then also add an image of the sun to aid communication. 08:56:52 janina2: I think this is fine except where choosing an ARASAAC symbol which has additional meaning 08:57:14 Lionel_Wolberger: But in the future when I paste in the concept it pastes in the concept code 09:00:37 matatk: We should do a mock-up of an authoring tool that lets the user look up a concept, and shows what it *might* look like - by showing it in a number of symbol sets. 09:01:28 kevin: If selecting some text, like 'sunny day' the authoring tool would then pick the right concept and symbols would appear, as the tool put in the code point(s) for the author. 09:01:36 scribe+ 09:01:51 janina2: I think Lionel_Wolberger wants to leverage the interest on emoji 09:02:01 kevin: This is separate to the contextual info that Adapt layers on top. 09:02:25 q+ 09:03:56 ack Lisa 09:05:26 Lionel_Wolberger: What it author wants to include an actual image of a symbol in the doc - can it be ignored? 09:05:36 kevin: If they put it in the doc, it's document content. It stays there. 09:05:54 ack me 09:06:34 matatk: Examples are important to show this. Selecting the right examples will allow for good demonstrations. We should probably include an example of this scenario 09:07:00 ... Another thing that we could do is we could add some symbols to some text that includes emojis 09:08:42 ... Is this now a good time for Annalu to share her example? 09:11:51 Annalu: [Demos how to do conjunctions] 09:12:38 ... Bliss AV 12378 maps to 'animal, beast'. Then Bliss AV 9011 maps to 'indicator_(plural)' 09:14:30 ... Indicators generally sit half a square above the presentation square and is presented in a quarter sized square itself 09:16:07 ... So technically when I writing Bliss I put the indicator in the middle of the symbol being modified 09:16:27 ... This needs to be handled in the font presentation 09:17:20 ... So 'animals' does not appear in the AV. 09:17:39 ... What I do is put the indicator first followed by the thing being modified 09:18:03 ... Ruby code: plural_ind12345"< ruby>animal6789 09:19:19 kevin: plural_ind123456789animal 09:20:15 s|plural_ind123456789animal|animals123456789| 09:20:21 rrsagent, make minutes 09:20:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/06-adapt-minutes.html kevin 09:20:43 Lionel_Wolberger: Now we need to think about how this is presented 09:21:28 matatk: Don't need to worry about whether this is the approach that implementors will support or not. If they do, great, if they don't then we can explore more 09:22:06 s/kevin:/kevin: Could also do -/ 09:22:12 janina1 has joined #adapt 09:22:47 matatk: Annalu this is extremely helpful as it makes the concepts that are being explore much clearer 09:23:05 ... When we do best practice we will need to think about what examples 09:25:27 Annalu: This is quite complicated to look at and may be better suited for a version 2 09:26:19 ... Creating an authoring tool that would manage this would be an excellent project 09:26:24 janina2 has joined #adapt 09:27:15 matatk: Another challenge is that when new web formats then we try to be as permissive as possible. We need to be careful that we are not handing people ways to break things for themselves. 09:27:42 ... The authoring tool could help you do this but the individual is unlikely to know enough about Bliss in order to do conjunctions 09:28:00 ... Some sort of expert system could help with this 09:28:34 Annalu: Yes, so it could present how to do plurals for authors 09:30:06 Lionel_Wolberger: So the scratch pad I use adds decorations to rows to aid comprehension. For example a green checkmark is added to pros. 09:57:16 rrsagent, make minutes 09:57:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/06-adapt-minutes.html kevin 09:57:30 Topic: Expert session 09:57:59 Lisa has joined #Adapt 10:00:15 present+ 10:02:50 zakim, who's here? 10:02:50 Present: Lionel_Wolberger, kevin, matatk, Annalu, Lisa 10:02:51 EA has joined #adapt 10:02:52 On IRC I see Lisa, janina2, Annalu, matatk, Lionel_Wolberger, RRSAgent, Zakim, kevin, Roy_Ruoxi, janina, hadleybeeman, gb 10:02:59 present+ 10:04:59 Q: How 'localisation' of symbols - e.g. to specific groups or regions (within a wider country/symbol set) - currently works. 10:05:16 s/Q: /matak: Q:/ 10:05:55 s/matak/matatk/ 10:05:58 rrsagent, make minutes 10:06:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/06-adapt-minutes.html kevin 10:12:32 pulling out EA's update for coga https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AlhQVd7aBrxxJA_h9zw3OPczBJUmZ9qV-d4M7viUKpM/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.bc4vqyklmnk0 10:13:44 s/pulling out/Lisa: pulling out/ 10:13:54 EA: AI presents a great opportunity. 10:14:51 matatk: There may be a symbol set for a country and there might be regional variations, and within that there may be personalised changes to the symbol set. 10:15:04 ... In high level terms, how does this work? 10:15:18 EA: There are basic open-licensed symbol sets 10:15:57 ... These sets are very often not a full vocabulary. They have a good core vocabulary of 500-2000 symbols. 10:16:20 ... There are variations based on age, targeted for children or adults 10:16:43 ... There are then collections associated with country themes of 2-300 symbols 10:17:09 ... They may be added to over time. As a collection they would mirror another symbol set so that they can be used with a wider symbol set 10:18:01 ... Authors have control of their symbol set. There is the facility to do definitions. There is ConceptNet which allows variations on a symbol to be managed, for example adding 'seek' to 'look' 10:18:18 ... Can also manage the images themselves but our preference is to have SVGs 10:18:43 ... We are building a system to have bulk upload SVGs and then allow for the download of PNGs 10:19:03 matatk: That localizaiton can be and usual is separate from the parent symbol set? 10:19:18 EA: Yes, and is totally controlled by the people who made it locally 10:19:53 ... The designs are a stylised versions of the wider symbol set. So a stylised version of ARASAAC 10:20:12 ... All we do is facilitate the process of making symbols in their own language and cultural context 10:20:40 ... We are very careful with ARASAAC as they are run by a government organization. They are largely happy with how collections are managed though 10:20:53 matatk: Useful to add 'collection' to our glossary 10:22:07 EA: A symbol set means that there is a core vocabulary (top 500-1000 words) and fringe words pertinent to the group being worked with 10:22:44 ... For example, localization might have a suitable currency symbol 10:22:56 q? 10:23:24 janina: The reason to tease this out is to see whether any of this 'personalization' 10:24:00 EA: There was a question on social media as to why there was no symbol for cerebral palsy. We made some images for this but received no response. 10:24:18 ... Part of the issue is that most images come from the relevant group 10:24:43 ... If you want to add an image to a collection you can also keep it private; for example a family dog or parent images 10:25:06 ... So there is personalization going on but it is harder to represent 10:25:25 janina: Where people are uploading or sharing, I presume it is much more formulated how it is integrated? 10:25:42 EA: Not at the moment but it is an area that we are exploring 10:26:47 Annalu: When someone has personal images on their communication board or device, I don't think that necessarily impacts on the global representation of what we are trying to do here. 10:26:56 Q+ 10:27:03 ... Should we be in the future be giving the option of local rendering for people. 10:27:09 EA: Interesting question. 10:27:38 ... What we are thinking of doing because of localization and poor internet access is allowing symbols to be retrieved or added from a local drive. 10:28:02 ... If you have text that is summarized does the user have the skills and cognition as well as the ability to find the right image 10:28:25 Annalu: Yes, and there may be some people who do not have the ability or skills to navigate to the material in this way 10:28:44 EA: Yes, this might be a 'gatekeeper' role who is selecting these symbols 10:28:57 Annalu: yes, this is one of our use cases to consider 10:29:39 q? 10:29:43 q+ Janina 10:29:46 ack Lisa 10:29:55 q+ 10:29:56 q+ to ask about local religious festivals 10:30:09 Lisa: The old implementation did support overriding from a local or personal symbol set 10:30:31 ... So for example a siren as a critical service, load this as a local picture with additional informaiton 10:30:52 ... I think this does have value but not sure if it is a blocker 10:31:03 ... Not sure about AI in critical serivce delivery 10:31:23 can it be handled at the user end via a user agent 10:31:24 EA: What we have is a way of making a wide range of fire hydrants or ambulances for many different countries 10:31:46 ... That is being explored as an experiment at the moment. We are looking for global user feedback on this at the moment 10:32:05 ... The aim is that these are critiqued as appropriate symbols 10:32:32 ... Hopefully this will be completed by the end of the year 10:32:49 q? 10:33:17 ... So a question I am thinking about is if these are incorporated as part of collection or in core 10:33:19 ack Janina 10:33:50 janina: Just testing my understanding, it strikes me that from this TFs goals we really don't care what the image is just that people can get to the image that they understand 10:34:02 ... Our concern is that the concept is being correctly mapped 10:34:27 ... Trying to ensure that associated a numeric identifier to a concept and thus to an image 10:35:01 ... What I am hearing is that the identifier doesn't change but the image is appropriate presented by the users context 10:35:17 EA: Symbols in our DB have their own IDs that are mapped to a concept. 10:35:45 ... The translation of a particular word (or words) to a concept is difficult to achieve in particular languages 10:36:07 matatk: We are explicitly excluding translation. A translated page could be marked up separately 10:36:33 EA: Ok, in that case the word/label would have to have a separate ID. I will need to consider this. 10:36:50 q? 10:36:56 ack me 10:36:56 matatk, you wanted to ask about local religious festivals 10:37:48 matatk: For local religious festivals; we are using the Bliss AV as our list of concepts. One reason is that it is comprehensive. 10:38:17 ... We talked about the possibility that in some symbol sets there may be a symbol that doesn't correspond to a Bliss concept that could be requested to be added 10:38:39 ... Local religious festivals may be one of those things that may not be broadly represented in Bliss 10:39:19 EA: The good thing about Bliss is that you can write the symbols online. There is no doubt that there are many festivals that we are not covering in pictographics or Bliss 10:39:40 ... The difficulty then is that if someone comes across that then they won't get that symbol at the time of reading. 10:40:08 ... This would need to have something that would be something similar as a workaround or no symbol is presented 10:40:20 ... This is never going to be 100% 10:40:40 matatk: We want to make sure that we are not introducing things that would make this situation worse 10:41:20 ... The authoring flow that we foresee is that there is a page and the non-expert author is reliant on the authoring tool to help them add concepts to their text 10:42:24 ... The authoring tool provides Bliss code points to cover the concepts. The author doesn't need to know what the Bliss symbol is. 10:42:48 ... When the user renders the concept then their symbol set replaces the code point appropriately. 10:43:03 ... However if there is no festival symbol then what is presented? 10:44:00 EA: Take Thaipusam (a Singaporean festival). This isn't a well known festival. AI comes up with something or the author could create a Bliss symbol that represents this 10:44:30 ... This could be designed in Bliss as it is generative language. 10:44:57 q+ to ask if 'making a symbol' is combining core Bliss symbols 10:45:23 ... The user then would need to map the Bliss symbols to a local symbol. 10:45:55 matatk: Just one more thing, this reinforces that Bliss is generative and authors could come up with new things. 10:46:36 ... Many people might want to refer to that festival. For the system to work universally then there needs to be a away for authors to feed new concept mappings back into core. 10:47:02 ... But what if the user doesn't have a local symbol for this 10:47:34 ... The concept look up could be in authoring tools but is it a big deal with mappings not being included quickly? 10:47:44 EA: No, this wouldn't be a huge deal. 10:48:20 ... The problem isn't generating the symbol. It would be possible to take an image and create a symbol in any symbol set. 10:48:34 ... Would need to also ensure that a symbol is added with a unique code. 10:48:39 q- 10:48:42 ack Lionel_Wolberger 10:49:03 Lionel_Wolberger: How did you chose Concept.net? 10:49:28 EA: It is open-source, it is added to and it has a wide ranging vocabulary. It also has automatic translations 10:49:33 ... It is a huge database 10:49:55 Lionel_Wolberger: For later - Does concept.net meet W3C normative 10:50:01 i think it is by pricton orignaly and used in the original wwaac project 10:50:31 Lionel_Wolberger: Searching globalsymbols.com for money I end up with three different symbols. 10:50:37 trying to incorporate every concept 10:50:53 ... Inspecting the HTML shows that the images are included as CSS background images. 10:50:56 AND availible in RDT or OWL 10:51:36 ... The focus of our work is that UAs could get unique IDs from sites like this to be included/interpreted when content is rendered. 10:52:20 ... [Demoing with Bliss code point in and alternative using `adapt-symbol` and code point in that] 10:52:26 ... Any opinion on these? 10:52:42 EA: The only concern is that Bliss concept can require 2 or 3 symbols 10:53:08 Lionel_Wolberger: Have you seen used in this way? 10:53:29 EA: I am sure this would work until concepts that require more than one symbol or a missing a symbol 10:54:35 Lionel_Wolberger: When there is no symbol the current specification is that a suggestion is provided. One of the nice things about using concept.net then you could traverse the tree upward to get an alternative representation. 10:55:45 Given that the first version of our proposed approach seeks minimal symbolisation for maximal results, what would be the most important content to highlight with symbols for our user population? 10:55:45 E.g. we are thinking of a single symbol per row, for chapters in videos, or step-by-step procedures; the symbol functions as a summary to aid comprehension. 10:55:51 EA: Yes 10:56:07 s/Given/matatk: Given/ 10:56:25 Annalu: To reitterate we are not translating, we are symbolising 10:56:35 s/reitterate/reiterate/ 10:56:55 EA: Yes, similarly to translating BSL for example 10:57:12 s/E.g. we/... E.g. we/ 10:57:42 matatk: Interesting we have been looking at symbols above but need to think about ways of presenting symbols in different ways. 10:58:16 matatk: One other thing to touch upon, we have been suggested this particular approach using Bliss and . 10:59:01 the problem with concept net is it is too big 10:59:02 ... If we can overcome the identified concerns later today then we need to be clear that this approach only uses Bliss 10:59:16 too many similar concepts 10:59:31 ... If we need to connect this to concept.net then this is something this approach doesn't address 10:59:35 of course most do not have symbols assosiated 10:59:48 and how to you select between similar concepts 11:00:15 practicaly, when we tried to build it, it just became overwelming 11:00:16 Annalu: Can we put this on the side just now. This introduces a challenge in how authors select symbols, and how one translates properly 11:00:50 q+ 11:00:52 q? 11:01:00 rrsagent, make minutes 11:01:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/06-adapt-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger 11:01:07 Lisa: We have tried some implementation with concept.net. The system is huge though. 11:01:26 q+ to check on where the concept net / looking for an alternative would fit in to the authoring / viewing flow 11:01:31 ... So, lets say you have 10,000 symbols and millions of concepts this creates problems for authors to select from. 11:02:04 ... This seemed to bring a huge amount of problems. Theoretically it could work but in practice selecting symbols would be problematic 11:02:30 ... We haven't precluded concept.net in our approach yet 11:02:36 ack matatk 11:02:36 matatk, you wanted to check on where the concept net / looking for an alternative would fit in to the authoring / viewing flow 11:03:10 matatk: Aim is to avoiding precluding things in advertantly. 11:03:28 ... The author isn't trying to find a symbol but just find the concept. 11:03:40 ack me 11:03:58 EA: Concept.net if you have a word like 'spring' you could find a symbol that has a coil, or time of year, or to jump. 11:04:17 ... The user doesn't know which one applies to the text. That is where the gatekeepers come in. 11:04:48 ... The dilemma is that whoever is using the system, you don't know if it is the AAC user who doesn't understand the text or the gatekeeper who does 11:04:51 it is the auther who specifices the concept 11:04:58 note they will get it wrong 11:05:16 janina: We are assuming that it is the author is finding and identifying the appropriate symbol 11:05:35 you can cascade sybol sets (thatb is what we did) 11:05:40 q? 11:05:43 at the user agent. 11:05:50 Annalu: If the user doesn't have a symbol then they could go to the symbol provider to request a symbol 11:06:26 user needs to select the possition 11:06:45 matatk: So keying off Bliss, not doing translation, need to be able to position , talked about process of customisation. 11:07:11 ... The customisation is done by different entities so expecting multiple sources in this is a bit of an ask. 11:07:13 ack Lionel_Wolberger 11:07:38 Lionel_Wolberger: You mentioned that things are moving quickly and AI is quite the change agent. 11:07:59 ... People are commonly decorating with emojis but I am told that this is not the same as symbols. 11:08:12 ... We are interested in symbols as an aid to comprehension. 11:08:27 ... I am interested on how emojis are now being used in this way. 11:09:14 EA: If you go to our site there are references to this and emojis are returned as possible options to searched for concepts 11:09:24 https://globalsymbols.com/symbolsets/openmoji/symbols/40756?locale=en 11:09:46 ... If this is coming from an AAC user perspective then this is great as this is what people are using 11:10:08 janina: And them linking this to a Bliss ID is fine? 11:10:15 EA: No problem at all 11:10:52 ... AAC images can be strange but they are very personal 11:11:14 Lionel_Wolberger: So decorating with an emoji is similar to an AAC image? 11:11:42 EA: No, they are different ways of communicating 11:11:55 q+ 11:11:56 q+ Janina 11:12:20 Lionel_Wolberger: The author tends to pick an image that they have in mind for the concept that they are selecting 11:12:29 EA: That is fine because it is a concept 11:12:42 matatk: Have you ever seen an emoji with an AAC symbol? 11:12:44 btw, coga comunity gave us the following feedback: Emoji alt text is often inadequate. Clearer guidance is needed on using emojis effectively in content, ensuring they don't replace essential text information. The current pattern (4.4.12) does not feel sufficient for members. 11:12:44 Problem: Emoji alt text may be inaccurate or insufficient. Their use in newsletters raises concerns about clarity and context. Simply pointing with an arrow emoji might not be clear enough. 11:12:44 Member: “In Content Usable, emoji are mentioned in the 4.4.12 Explain Implied Content (Pattern) but it just states “Note that standard emojis often come with an explanation or alternative text” but I’m not sure that’s accurate or very helpful.” 11:12:44 Proposed Solutions: 11:12:46 More detailed descriptive text for emojis. 11:12:46 Avoid using emojis to replace text. 11:12:46 Clarify the use of emojis in 4.4.12. 11:12:47 Clarify what "standard" emojis are. 11:12:47 Note: emojis don't have alt text by default - it must be added, which is covered in this WCAG 2.1 technique [Providing text alternatives for emojis, emoticons, ASCII art, and leetspeak] 11:13:01 ack me 11:13:03 EA: Technically possible to do 11:13:36 Annalu: Emoji convey some emotion related to the associated message. 11:13:46 ... This gives people a wider array of tools 11:14:02 EA: If you can't do a thumbs up then you could add a symbol to convey this meaning 11:14:18 Annalu: This is a way to add to non-verbal communication 11:14:57 ack janina 11:15:12 janina: Keen that we give good vocabulary as we write supporting material 11:15:22 simbolaztion 11:15:23 ... Agreed this is not translation, what is it we are doing? 11:15:32 Annalu: Symbolization 11:15:44 +1 for symbolization 11:15:44 EA: It is definitely not 'decorating' 11:16:01 janina: So the process is 'symbollizing' 11:16:16 EA: Have to respect that this is someones language and we need to respect that 11:16:33 Lionel_Wolberger: Symbolization (symbolisation) is well defined. E.g., https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/symbolization 11:16:39 ... Similar to BSL. AAC could/should be an accepted language 11:17:19 Annalu: We need to remember that this field has been around for 50 years 11:17:41 FYI: Code sample of inline Ruby --> Inline Ruby Demo

Standard Ruby:
cat 🐱

Simulated Inline Ruby:
cat 🐱 11:17:41

11:17:54 ... There is a slight tension between BSL and AAC communities but these is also a shared recognition of the importance of the words that we are using 11:33:56 rrsagent, make minutes 11:33:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/06-adapt-minutes.html kevin 12:03:52 Lisa has joined #Adapt 12:09:40 i think it is a concept that we are recoding 12:09:44 Q+ 12:09:55 topic: Reviewing the expert session 12:11:04 scribe+ 12:11:18 Liso: The idea of them changing the representation but not the concept seems alien - has this ever happened? 12:11:57 s/Liso/Lisa/ 12:12:43 Annalu: I think the best way to think about this is spelling words. The concept remains the same, but the way we concatenate a seuqnece of bliss characters to reflect that concept may change. It doesn't happen often, but it may change. And we have a way to reflect that in the AV via either the gloss or the English word associated with the concept, 12:12:44 followed by the word 'OLD' which means its an old spelling. 12:13:51 Annalu: Some bliss codepoints point to concepts; some concepts are identified by a sequence of charcters (codepoints). 12:14:07 q+ 12:14:09 matatk: How often does it happen? 12:14:18 Annalu: Very seldom - I can look that up. 12:14:26 Lionel_Wolberger: When it happens, what's the workaround? 12:16:08 matatk: Symbol sets would have to change because Bliss changed the appearance of something. This isn't appropriate. But is it worse - existing content will break if the symbol sets update? 12:20:19 q- 12:20:27 matatk: So the steps: 12:20:37 ... I search for 'tea' in my authoring tool 12:20:54 ... It returns 'drink' 'leaf' 12:21:02 ... This is added to the code 12:21:15 ... Later Bliss decides to change the 'spelling' for tea 12:21:40 ... So we are keying on the spelling of a word where the spelling of the word can change in the future 12:22:23 Annalu: So if website was looking up on that ID then it would go to 'tea (old)' 12:22:37 matatk: But old webpages would still point to the old spelling 12:23:52 Lionel_Wolberger: So I am trying to look up the concept of 'tea' and the authoring tool returns two unicode code points for 'drink' + 'leaf'. 12:24:12 ... Later a user views the page and the look up shows those two symbols 12:24:30 ... Later Bliss changes 'tea' to 'glass' + 'leaf' 12:24:54 ... Later user views the page again and the symbol still has the same two symbols as originally. 12:25:30 matatk: Correct but everytime Bliss does this then symbol set fonts need to update to recognize the change 12:26:12 Annalu: If we look at the way the webpage is formatted, then we have 'tea' followed by two code points. 12:26:48 ... tea code point for drink code point for leaf 12:26:59 janina: So not wrong but historic 12:28:04 matatk: My font which displays my symbols, when it sees 'drink' + 'leaf' then it displays my ARASAAC symbol for 'tea'. After an update the AV is updated and this changes the reference 12:38:37 Annalu: I have done the calculation... in the 50-year history of Bliss words, 11% are marked as old. 12:40:34 Annalu: Unicode is the alphabet, and the AV is the dictionary. What we're asking symbol set creators to do is to create their font based on the dictionary rather than the alphabet. 12:40:42 kevin: Sounds like this can work. 12:41:02 matatk: Yep, seems so! 12:44:14 Lionel_Wolberger: Quote 12:44:16 In the past 50 years of language development and planning, a number of glyphs 12:44:16 have been changed. The Blissymbol Reference Guide Supplement (BR1 2004:1) specifies that old glyphs 12:44:16 must be supported for users who prefer them: “The original forms will remain in the BCI Authorized 12:44:16 Vocabulary and can be retained by Bliss users if they so choose”. 12:44:22 From: https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2023/23138-n5228-blissymbols.pdf 12:44:36 ISO/IEC JTC1/SC2/WG2 N5228 2023-06-23 Parag. 10 12:51:23 Annalu has joined #adapt 12:51:51 present+ 12:59:56 Topic: Missing equivalent symbol 13:00:16 Annalu: The symbol font author shall define the "no symbol found" symbol 13:00:51 ... the rendering system could display the default bliss symbol 13:01:37 matatk: Can a font define a null character? 13:02:01 Annalu: This does not sound like the platform should behave this way 13:02:47 ... In my experience, the missing symbol should be rendered as BLANK. If the page is white, the square is white; if the page is black, the square is black 13:03:00 ... the end-user does not experience any symbol at all 13:05:54 I have a coga related meeting at 3-4 your time. I will be back for the remote meeting 13:12:08 Just updated the agenda for later per our discussion: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a124c8bf-3982-4d0f-8862-7440d677983b/ 13:12:17 topic: Meeting practice 13:12:30 (agenda above - this bit won't need much scribing) 13:12:34 rrsagent, make minutes 13:12:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/06-adapt-minutes.html matatk 13:21:36 Topic: Accessible Name and PUA 13:21:52 Lionel_Wolberger: Accessible name is likely better supported in the PUA implementation 13:27:44 q+ 13:34:53 q- 13:57:51 Topic: Revisiting Issue 240 13:58:01 Annalu: Shows a "psychology" example 13:59:15 need to juump to another call. will be back for the meeting 13:59:24 Lionel_Wolberger: Reposting an example of .. .. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/79241770/vertically-stacked-ruby-text-elements 14:37:15 Lisa has joined #Adapt 14:56:56 present+ 14:56:57 matatk has joined #adapt 14:57:54 Topic: Meeting with colleagues representing other W3C groups and WHATWG 14:58:03 rrsagent, make minutes 14:58:04