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14:02:12 <gtw> I don't seem to have the invite for the SPARQL call. I thought it was right now, but hoping somebody could confirm and send me the zoom link.
14:02:12 <james> present+
14:02:34 <AndyS> https://us02web.zoom.us/j/85197979904?pwd=Wk5adzJTS3Z3dnNhbkRYUWdUNVQ1dz09
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14:04:12 <TallTed> Zakim, bye
14:04:12 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been eBremer, gkellogg, james, Souri, AndyS, gtw, pfps, tl, ora, Tpt, draggett, enrico, TallTed
14:04:12 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
14:04:13 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
14:04:13 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/01-rdf-star-actions.rdf :
14:04:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ora to write a non-normative description (in "what's new") about what properties can or should link to triple terms [1]
14:04:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/05/01-rdf-star-irc#T16-20-08
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14:04:23 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/05/02-rdf-star-irc
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14:04:53 <TallTed> meeting: SPARQL Task Force of RDF 1.2 WG
14:05:13 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/f06c6b04-08ad-44a5-9f20-9f7c92399e43/20250502T140000/
14:05:14 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:05:14 <agendabot> agenda+ Any other agenda items?
14:05:14 <agendabot> agenda+ Scribe
14:05:14 <agendabot> agenda+ Tests
14:05:14 <agendabot> agenda+ Review comments
14:05:21 <Tpt> present+
14:05:26 <olaf> present+
14:05:37 <TallTed> present+
14:06:14 <olaf> scribe+
14:06:18 <AndyS> present+
14:06:50 <olaf> AndyS: first item is introductions
14:06:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:07:12 <olaf> joka921: I am Johannes
14:07:21 <olaf> ... PhD student in Freiburg
14:07:28 <olaf> ... working on QLever
14:07:49 <olaf> ... we also founded a company
14:07:58 <TallTed> s|https://us02web.zoom.us/j/85197979904?pwd=Wk5adzJTS3Z3dnNhbkRYUWdUNVQ1dz09||
14:08:03 <olaf> ... We are interested in becoming standard conform
14:08:15 <olaf> ... In this context, EXIST is a rabbit hole
14:08:43 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/156
14:08:44 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/156 -> #156
14:08:45 <olaf> AndyS: Three things from the GitHub issue ..
14:08:56 <olaf> ... pfps put an example query
14:08:58 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/05/01-rdf-star-minutes.html
14:08:58 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/05/08-rdf-star-minutes.html
14:09:11 <olaf> ... which behaves differently for the different proposals
14:09:12 <james> q+
14:09:14 <TallTed> chair: AndyS
14:09:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:09:29 <olaf> ... I added this into the test suite
14:09:31 <olaf> ... in a repo
14:09:36 <AndyS> Test from the issue: https://github.com/afs/SPARQL-exists
14:10:09 <olaf> ... Has everyone seen pfps query?
14:10:26 <olaf> ... It has a subquery with just a FILTER inside
14:10:36 <AndyS> BIND ( ex:a as ?v )  ... EXISTS { SELECT ?v WHERE { FILTER (?v = ex:a) } }
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14:10:49 <Souri> present+
14:11:03 <gtw> present+
14:11:13 <olaf> ... I created also variations of this one for the test suite
14:11:34 <olaf> ... including a version with SELECT * .., and a version with NOT EXISTS
14:12:39 <olaf> james: I recall that pfps had a complete set of queries many years ago
14:12:49 <olaf> AndyS: That's also in the test suite
14:13:05 <olaf> ... in a separate directory because some of these queries are illegal
14:13:24 <olaf> ... There are three directories in the test repo that I created
14:13:52 <olaf> ... So, all the test that I know about are there.
14:14:08 <AndyS> ack james
14:14:13 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-dev/blob/main/SEP/SEP-0007/sep-0007.md#identified-issues
14:14:50 <olaf> ... The five issues that pfps identified have been copied on a wiki
14:15:00 <Tpt> q+
14:15:02 <james> q+
14:15:16 <olaf> Tpt: Thanks for that!
14:15:22 <olaf> ... What are the next steps?
14:15:35 <olaf> ... Results for these tests from different implementation?
14:15:53 <olaf> AndyS: Knowing what implementation do would be good.
14:16:18 <olaf> ... But pfps' analysis have shown that there are differences.
14:16:36 <olaf> ... Yet, some of these things may also simply be bugs.
14:17:42 <olaf> ... Next steps are to understand what the problem space is.
14:17:52 <olaf> ... We have the issues identified by pfps
14:18:18 <olaf> ... and we have external comments from Pavel (Stardog) and from Johannes & Hannah (QLever)
14:18:26 <olaf> ... Also, more tests would be good!
14:19:02 <olaf> ... Latest version of Jena also has Antijoin and .. (?)
14:19:15 <olaf> ... Semijoin
14:19:42 <olaf> .. Does it seems right as a general direction for the TF?
14:19:59 <olaf> ... Does it seems right as a general direction for the TF?
14:20:01 <AndyS> ack tpt
14:20:13 <olaf> james: I would like to clarify the procedure.
14:20:17 <AndyS> ack james
14:20:30 <olaf> ... What priorities do you want for the three different directories?
14:21:00 <olaf> AndyS: My first objective with the repo was to collect tests, not to prioritize them.
14:21:18 <olaf> ... The WG tests in sparql 1.2 are very simple
14:21:29 <olaf> ... not related to pfps' issues
14:21:55 <olaf> james: First establish values htat people have for FILTER EXIST
14:22:22 <olaf> AndyS: pfps' queries touch on subqueries
14:23:24 <olaf> james: back to my question, if we want to establish behavior, which tests?
14:24:02 <olaf> AndyS: Is the list (of test queries?) covering the most important things we want to focus on?
14:24:24 <olaf> james: I will proceed and see if I am going in the right direction.
14:24:58 <olaf> ... To my PR, it is a very simple change to the spec document, as you have asked me for last week.
14:25:21 <olaf> ... it covers what we do since a decade.
14:25:42 <AndyS> james PR -- https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/pull/211
14:25:42 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/211 -> #211
14:26:19 <olaf> ... I maintain that this is a sufficient approach.
14:26:45 <olaf> ... Our results agree with pfps' results from couple of years ago.
14:27:05 <olaf> ... This method effectively implements dynamic bindings.
14:27:45 <olaf> ... Nothing in the literature about evaluation strategies for BGPs that uses nested loops and has the issue with blank nodes.
14:28:00 <olaf> ... I intend to pfps' recent comments.
14:28:34 <olaf> AndyS: Is that covered by the current issues list?
14:28:37 <olaf> james: no
14:29:18 <olaf> AndyS: I have some questions about how this deals with illegal queries, will discuss on the GH issue.
14:30:06 <olaf> james: there are two issues (to be separated) - 2/ substitution
14:30:14 <olaf> ... 1/ dynamic bindings
14:30:50 <olaf> We propose to do the substitution in the value domain and not in the lexical domain.
14:30:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:31:05 <olaf> ... We propose to do the substitution in the value domain and not in the lexical domain.
14:31:31 <olaf> ... And this is not just a proposal but an existing implementation.
14:31:48 <olaf> q+
14:32:45 <AndyS> External comments 1 : https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/156#issuecomment-2824827421
14:32:45 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/156 -> Issue 156 Addressing SPARQL EXISTS errata (by afs) [ErratumRaised]
14:33:19 <AndyS> External comments 2 : https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/156#issuecomment-2844641413
14:34:00 <AndyS> ack olaf
14:35:34 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-dev/blob/main/SEP/SEP-0007/sep-0007.md#issue-3-blank-nodes-substituted-into-bgps-act-as-variables
14:36:06 <olaf> james: Yes, that's the issue it addresses.
14:36:19 <TallTed> present: AndyS, TallTed, gb, olaf, Tpt, james, joka921
14:36:24 <olaf> AndyS: We have two external comments ..
14:36:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:36:55 <olaf> ... one from Pavel Klinov (Stardog). Please take the time to read his comment.
14:37:26 <TallTed> present+ gtw, Souri
14:37:36 <AndyS> s!External comments 1 : https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/156#issuecomment-2824827421!External comments 1 : https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/156#issuecomment-2378520807!
14:38:42 <AndyS> s|External comments 1 : https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/156#issuecomment-2824827421|External comments 1 : https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/156#issuecomment-2378520807|
14:39:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:39:42 <TallTed> s|s!External comments 1 : w3c/sparql-query#156 (comment) comments 1 : w3c/sparql-query#156 (comment)||
14:39:46 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/156#issuecomment-2390802086
14:39:47 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/156 -> Issue 156 Addressing SPARQL EXISTS errata (by afs) [ErratumRaised]
14:39:55 <olaf> AndyS: The other external comment is from Hannah & joka921
14:40:49 <TallTed> s/... We propose to do the substitution in the value domain and not in the lexical domain.//
14:40:49 <TallTed> s/We propose to do the substitution in the value domain and not in the lexical domain./... We propose to do the substitution in the value domain and not in the lexical domain./
14:41:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:41:07 <olaf> joka921: What Hannah wrote is from the perspective: If you look at the SPARQL spec as is, there is a coherent set of things and then there is one thing that is different, namely EXISTS
14:41:44 <olaf> ... If it does something completely different, then it has to be properly specified and it has to be consistent with a limited set of rules.
14:42:35 <olaf> ... It should be a solution that handles all the cases with as few special rules as possible.
14:43:10 <olaf> ... Hannah also raises that FILTER NOT EXISTS becomes MINUS, which we already have
14:43:32 <olaf> AndyS: Can you say something about point 7 (important features missing)
14:43:45 <james> q+
14:44:11 <olaf> ... It is out of scope of the WG to add more features, it is good to keep an eye on what features may be added in the future.
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14:44:52 <olaf> joka921: If half of the spec is duplicated just for this one feature, then that's a heavy debt.
14:45:23 <olaf> ... There are not too many strange points with the substitutions.
14:45:39 <olaf> ... i) blank nodes, ii) scope
14:46:13 <olaf> ... What happens in practice is that engines implement substitution semantics also for other things (e.g., union)
14:46:53 <TallTed> q+
14:47:15 <olaf> AndyS: Sometime (not today) I would like your reaction on the five issues.
14:47:28 <AndyS> ack james
14:48:25 <olaf> james: The issue of scope is seen as an epe... (?) of looking at this from a broader perspective.
14:49:09 <olaf> ... This TF has been created as a means to investigate and address the EXIST issue, in addition to finishing the work on statement annotation.
14:49:37 <olaf> ... Therefore, this TF doesn't have to finish before the main WG finishes the specs.
14:50:05 <olaf> ... In other words, the TF may look into things that involve new features.
14:50:15 <AndyS> ack TallTed
14:50:25 <olaf> ... And that may carry over into the maintanence phase
14:51:00 <olaf> TallTed: "Bottom-up" doesn't make much sense, but "inside out"
14:51:33 <olaf> ... Communicating it in this way can be helpful.
14:51:59 <gtw> spec has one reference in "12. Subqueries": "Due to the bottom-up nature of SPARQL query evaluation..."
14:52:13 <olaf> AndyS: I don't think the spec mentions this wording.
14:52:35 <james> lexical evaluation as the early definition is a revelation
14:52:55 <james> q+
14:53:10 <olaf> ... If there are bits of the text (in particular in the tutorial-style parts of the spec) which give this impression, it would be good to identify and change them.
14:53:21 <AndyS> ack james
14:53:55 <olaf> james: "bottom-up" I found unambiguously in the implementation of the algebra
14:54:21 <olaf> ... worthwhile to carry this into the higher level sections of the spec
14:55:14 <james> q+
14:55:16 <olaf> AndyS: Continuing steps on the issue are to get tests
14:55:46 <olaf> james: I would like to hear what expectations are on topics for next week.
14:56:04 <olaf> ... For instance, as many tests as possible?
14:56:27 <olaf> AndyS: In my experience, there are usually 1-2 tests that become the focus point of discussion.
14:56:54 <olaf> james: okay, I will at the tests with an eye to which of them is related to which of the five issues
14:56:57 <AndyS> ack james
14:57:08 <olaf> s/will at/will look at
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14:58:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
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15:00:06 <TallTed> Zakim, end meeting
15:00:06 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AndyS, TallTed, gb, olaf, Tpt, james, joka921, gtw, Souri
15:00:08 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:00:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/02-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
15:00:15 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:00:15 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
15:00:15 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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